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Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#61
post #57
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless of course you plan to make a positive impact on others or our planet with that money, but to me your posts don't make that impression. I consider this a non-sequitur. Making a lot of money is considered the primary goal in our capitalist society and the sheer mechanics of our economy would guarantee it to be a net positive in all but 99% of cases (i.e burning the pile of money).

> Making a lot of money is considered the primary goal in our capitalist society It might be the goal of people lacking empathy and people who think happiness comes with money, which is true only up to an amount far below 1M. Unless, again, the money is meant to be given to others. I am not sure what you mean by considering my argument a non-sequitur, could you elaborate? > the sheer mechanics of our economy would gu…

> I am not sure what you mean by considering my argument a non-sequitur, could you elaborate?

It shouldn't matter what I do with the money. I don't even have it. The larger point I disagree with is that it's a losing battle to somehow tune their career to fix all the ills of the world, it's better to make as much money as possible to hope that our economy will efficiently distribute the resources for the greater good.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#62
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Don't be an engineer? If you're purely in it for the money, I would suggest the way to get 1mn/year is to join a hedge fund or prop trading firm as a trader. Steps: 1. Graduate from an ivy league school with a good GPA so it's easy to get in the door 2. Pass rigorous math based interviews - lots of guides on studying for these 3. Make money on your desk, which requires the ability to learn financial concepts, and qui…

I was waiting for this post... are you saying traders at hedge funds can make this money... but engineers don't? I thought algo traders required engineers, or is there a systematic split from the pure traders who look at funky graphs and the engineers who work on the backend systems?

Yes, for the most part. It really varies of course, but traders are traditionally the top dogs. Engineers at a hedge fund / prop firm will generally get paid very well, but 1 million+ would be an extreme outlier, even for a quant dev unless they are also actively trading what they build.

Traders are usually the ones coming up with the strategies and executing them. They also take the most personal risk, since they can be held directly liable for mistakes. That is, the SEC can directly prosecute them, fine them, take away trading credentials, and so on - basically ruin their career if they make a stupid mistake. Very few engineers at these firms are credentialed traders or take any personal risk at all.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#63
post #56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this is not guaranteed or even expected at a prop shop or hedge fund either. I know of a very large hedge fund where pay is not as good as you think. I will just say that I have never seen a trader who makes $1 million per year claim that this is a good way of doing it. You're probably better off as a SWE at Google than as a trader at this hedge fund.

Yeah it's not guaranteed at all. You have to be at a profitable desk to make it happen. I don't want to give any numbers since it's too variable, but I would guess it would still be a minority of the traders who pull 1 million+ even at the most successful firms. But I think if you are aiming for that number it's the most straightforward way - it has the least amount of variability and just relies on your own personal…

Having worked as a trader, a lot of it comes not from personal skill, but just from being in the right product, at the right firm, at the right time.

Even at firms/desks that are in the right products at the right time, few people actually make 7 figures. If I'm not mistaken, you should be aware of this for a variety of reasons. I'm not convinced that making this kind of money is easier or more likely in finance than in tech.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#64
post #63
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's not guaranteed at all. You have to be at a profitable desk to make it happen. I don't want to give any numbers since it's too variable, but I would guess it would still be a minority of the traders who pull 1 million+ even at the most successful firms. But I think if you are aiming for that number it's the most straightforward way - it has the least amount of variability and just relies on your own personal…

Having worked as a trader, a lot of it comes not from personal skill, but just from being in the right product, at the right firm, at the right time. Even at firms/desks that are in the right products at the right time, few people actually make 7 figures. If I'm not mistaken, you should be aware of this for a variety of reasons. I'm not convinced that making this kind of money is easier or more likely in finance than…

Thanks for the insight! My experience is, admittedly, based on a limited sample size. I think you're right though, there is still huge variability for traders, and a lot of it is luck.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#65
post #64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked as a trader, a lot of it comes not from personal skill, but just from being in the right product, at the right firm, at the right time. Even at firms/desks that are in the right products at the right time, few people actually make 7 figures. If I'm not mistaken, you should be aware of this for a variety of reasons. I'm not convinced that making this kind of money is easier or more likely in finance than…

Thanks for the insight! My experience is, admittedly, based on a limited sample size. I think you're right though, there is still huge variability for traders, and a lot of it is luck.

I think that a sufficiently motivated person could find a leaked list of bonuses from that firm and check for themselves if there were any new grads that made $1 million+ and also check how many such persons there were.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#67
You want to get rich, but aren't willing to invest in your social and technical skills? Good luck with that. If anybody's looking for a textbook definition for "lazy and entitled", the attitude implied by this question is as close as I've ever seen. Please keep in mind that I don't mean that as an insult.

Now, with that out of the way, I will say this: There's a pernicious myth in the industry that you need to be "brilliant" to create something valuable and successful. Which is bullshit. You just need to be competent, persistent, and extraordinarily lucky.

Here, in order, are the modern keys to wealth:

- Know rich people. Be someone they enjoy hanging out with. People want to work with people they like, so this greatly increases the odds they'll throw you a project or put you on their team. See: Balmer, Steve. (NOTE: This requires social skills.)

- Create a business product. Be a middle man. Build a product that identifies and ameliorates a common business pain point. Find a major, underlying cost that is industry-wide and create a service or app that reduces this cost for the user. As quickly as possible, put competent people to work under you. Scale quickly and gets lots of smart people in your corner quickly. (NOTE: This requires social skills, observational skills, persistence, technical skills, and a generous helping of luck.)

- Create a consumer product. Be a founder. Build a business that satisfies a base human desire (entertainment, sex, greed, etc.) and charge money for it. See above. (NOTE: This requires all the same skills as above, plus more luck. The consumer space is packed with competition.)

- Be indispensable in a lucrative, but unpopular, niche. Specialize in MUMPS or COBOL or FORTRAN. Pick an industry that many avoid, like porn or gambling or spam. There's less competition, sure, but there's also higher risk to your long-term employment. And you have to live with yourself, so be sure you're OK with your choice. (NOTE: This seems to be the most compatible with your skill set and attitude, but might not be an ethical/moral match.)

- Grind away in a decent job, save aggressively, and invest. Be boring. Get a $120k/yr job and live like a student, putting at least half your income into savings. After a few years, start investing that money in people more motivated/skilled than yourself. This has the highest likelihood of working out -- assuming economic stability -- but is the least sexy option available to moderately talented engineers because it takes a long time. (NOTE: You'll still probably need social skills to be successful at this.)

- Get profoundly lucky. Be in the right place at the right time. Be the founding engineer or a stupid startup at a time when VCs are throwing money at everything and asking no questions. Be an early hire at a unicorn. Stumble on the next Angry Birds or Pokemon Go or whatever. (NOTE: This is entirely beyond your control. Almost everybody in The Valley of Dreams is pursuing this goal. You're still better-served by having technical and social skills.)

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#68
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brimming with arrogance and a complete lack of self awareness. There are a lot of programmers in the top 25% that are willing to work for a lot less than 1 million a year. Why would anyone hire this guy who has no social skills, is arrogant and expects to be paid more than everyone else who brings the same value as him? There isn't some magic set of decisions you can make which will circumvent the rules of supply and…

> Why would anyone hire this guy who has no social skills, is arrogant and expects to be paid more than everyone else who brings the same value as him? I think OP is asking how to add enough value as a top 25% programmer to justify getting paid this amount. That strikes me as a very fair question.

OP isn't quite asking that imo. If you want to add enough value to justify that salary there's an obvious answer: get better at your job. I.e. don't be in the top 25% of programmers, be in the top 1% or .1%. If OP was asking how do I get good enough at programming to justify this high of a salary then that would be a fair question. If you're asking how do I get more money without getting better at my core competency then you're essentially asking "how do I beat the system," which isn't a particularly fair question at all.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Do you think it will make you happy? I used to think money would at least make life easier, but past a certain point (and that point is vastly less than $1m/year), it really doesn't - you just end up spending it on stupid and pointlessly expensive things that mean you have to make more of it in order to be where you were before. And when you look at the really rich people, like Zuckerberg, Buffett, or Gates, wha…

This perspective is common amongst people who are making "enough". But most people in the world don't. Enough with the moralizing.

Your perspective is odd and not based on evidence. Happiness does not scale linearly in relation to earnings. It tops out around £40k in the UK, if I remember the stat correctly.

Of course, there are outliers, people whose happiness does scale linearly with their earnings. More importantly, I feel, is the vertigo associated with income, the fear and worry of taking a cut in earnings. Lifestyle expands to fit income.

It does not seem that you have considered the why, only the what. Why do you want $1m? Several others have raised this question here. You will be far, far more satisfied if you spend a time considering this in detail.

Re: Ask HN: How to make more than $1mn+/yr as a software engineer?

#70
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would anyone hire this guy who has no social skills, is arrogant and expects to be paid more than everyone else who brings the same value as him? I think OP is asking how to add enough value as a top 25% programmer to justify getting paid this amount. That strikes me as a very fair question.

OP isn't quite asking that imo. If you want to add enough value to justify that salary there's an obvious answer: get better at your job. I.e. don't be in the top 25% of programmers, be in the top 1% or .1%. If OP was asking how do I get good enough at programming to justify this high of a salary then that would be a fair question. If you're asking how do I get more money without getting better at my core competency…

I guess I'm just not convinced that going from a 25% programmer to a top 0.1% programmer is an efficient way of making $1 million per year.

I think you are far better off working on your social and business skills.

Maybe that's "beating the system", but an incredible amount of money has been made by people whose technical abilities did not go beyond mediocre PHP skills.

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