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SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

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Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#11

I love seeing so many people re-package a news piece based on numbeo's cost of living model which is incredibly flawed and doesn't account for the wide variance of the cost of rent depending on whether one is single, is willing to live with roommates, is willing to deal with a longer commute, etc. Trying to develop a salary + cost of living model that doesn't take into account one's personal priorities and preference…

If you are willing to suffer like that (have roommates, not have all the kids you might want, not have a stay-at-home parent...) to deal with the cost of rent in San Francisco, then you can also do it elsewhere and live even cheaper. Detroit could be nearly free.

So, that doesn't help SF or NYC. The cost-saving measures work elsewhere too, getting you something better or an even lower cost.

Living in a place like The Ghost Ship is not good for you, even if you don't actually die in a fire.

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#12

I love seeing so many people re-package a news piece based on numbeo's cost of living model which is incredibly flawed and doesn't account for the wide variance of the cost of rent depending on whether one is single, is willing to live with roommates, is willing to deal with a longer commute, etc. Trying to develop a salary + cost of living model that doesn't take into account one's personal priorities and preference…

It's not SF/NY vs. Des Moines. It's SF/NY vs. Seattle/Austin/Denver/LA.

Your examples don't disprove the article's main point, which is that the cost of living in the Bay Area (and New York) erodes much of the salary bump you get by working in those places. Paying $1200 to rent a bedroom is normal in NY and SF, but that price will get you an entire apartment or more in many other places.

Look, to many of us, the Bay Area is worth its high cost - being in the center of the tech industry, surrounded by thousands of companies, and enjoying the beautiful weather of this region makes up for expensive housing. But as the tech industry grows in other cities and as their salaries increase, I'm beginning to seriously think about moving.

The kind of tradeoffs that I made when I was young, stuff like having roommates, living in a rundown place, longer commute, etc. increasingly don't make sense as I get older. I have a family, and looking for a house in the Bay Area is a sobering affair. Nothing can be had in the Peninsula for under $1.2 million, and even across the Bay homes are $800k plus.

Meanwhile my friends in Seattle and other cities are buying real family homes and living the American dream. I have to wonder, is it worth staying here?

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#13
post #7

If I were a young software developer solely focused on saving as much money as possible, I would: move to SF in a heartbeat, work for Facebook, Google, or Amazon, pick a mission-critical team that exposed me to systems at massive scale, and live in a van a pleasant 5-10 minute bike ride from the office. After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k s…

If I lived in your fantasy world I'd just make myself the king of Saudi Arabia. Seems simpler.

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#14
post #11

I love seeing so many people re-package a news piece based on numbeo's cost of living model which is incredibly flawed and doesn't account for the wide variance of the cost of rent depending on whether one is single, is willing to live with roommates, is willing to deal with a longer commute, etc. Trying to develop a salary + cost of living model that doesn't take into account one's personal priorities and preference…

If you are willing to suffer like that (have roommates, not have all the kids you might want, not have a stay-at-home parent...) to deal with the cost of rent in San Francisco, then you can also do it elsewhere and live even cheaper. Detroit could be nearly free. So, that doesn't help SF or NYC. The cost-saving measures work elsewhere too, getting you something better or an even lower cost. Living in a place like The…

"Detroit could be nearly free."

Who would have more money in the bank at the end of the year? A software developer in SF spending $40k on rent, or a software developer in Detroit spending $0 on rent?

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#15
post #7

If I were a young software developer solely focused on saving as much money as possible, I would: move to SF in a heartbeat, work for Facebook, Google, or Amazon, pick a mission-critical team that exposed me to systems at massive scale, and live in a van a pleasant 5-10 minute bike ride from the office. After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k s…

> After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k sheltered income.

May someone please explain this? I wasn't aware of a different 401k contribution limit for freelancing.

> Life doesn't present a ton of these "sell picks and shovels to gold miners" opportunities but this is definitely one of them.

Feel like this is more akin to a goldminer working 24/7. Selling "picks and shovels" is what landlords / AWS / food delivery / ride-shares are doing.

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are willing to suffer like that (have roommates, not have all the kids you might want, not have a stay-at-home parent...) to deal with the cost of rent in San Francisco, then you can also do it elsewhere and live even cheaper. Detroit could be nearly free. So, that doesn't help SF or NYC. The cost-saving measures work elsewhere too, getting you something better or an even lower cost. Living in a place like The…

"Detroit could be nearly free." Who would have more money in the bank at the end of the year? A software developer in SF spending $40k on rent, or a software developer in Detroit spending $0 on rent?

Obviously it depends how much you make in each place.

The argument most miss is that if you buy a place in SFO, that rent isn't throwaway, it's equity.

Though I live in the Midwest. Was lucky to find a big salary here.

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#17
post #9

I love seeing so many people re-package a news piece based on numbeo's cost of living model which is incredibly flawed and doesn't account for the wide variance of the cost of rent depending on whether one is single, is willing to live with roommates, is willing to deal with a longer commute, etc. Trying to develop a salary + cost of living model that doesn't take into account one's personal priorities and preference…

Not exclusive to the Midwest. Just move to RTP.

Yeah, RTP seems nice. My company has it's HQ in Indiana and a big office in RTP. Have considered moving many times...

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#18
post #15
post #7

If I were a young software developer solely focused on saving as much money as possible, I would: move to SF in a heartbeat, work for Facebook, Google, or Amazon, pick a mission-critical team that exposed me to systems at massive scale, and live in a van a pleasant 5-10 minute bike ride from the office. After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k s…

> After I felt comfortable I'd start to consult on the side on weekends for up to $53k of annual tax-free solo 401k sheltered income. May someone please explain this? I wasn't aware of a different 401k contribution limit for freelancing. > Life doesn't present a ton of these "sell picks and shovels to gold miners" opportunities but this is definitely one of them. Feel like this is more akin to a goldminer working 24/…

I was under the impression that you can just set up a corporation for your freelancing, with you as the only employee, and have your corporation offer a very generous 401k plan that matches individual contributions up to the maximum legal amount.

Re: SF Is One of the Worst-Paying Places in the US for Software Engineers

#20
Disagree. I'm from the Midwest and live in SF now. Couldn't be happier with my change.

Data point of one:

- $2200/mo 1BR apt in SF (Inner Sunset). Not trendy, but nice. I got it 3 years ago.

- Working for a major tech co.

- Roughly $275K/yr in total comp (salary/equity/bonuses). It goes up around $10-20k every year, as my equity bumps compound and I get raises.

- Putting away $18k/yr in 401k + $9k company match.

- Average bills of $1000/mo. Mostly leisure spending, but also includes the occasional Lyft, etc.

- Mostly eat at work for free. Minimal food in the house for dinner, which I don't eat that often (I snack a lot at work and don't feel hungry). I think I eat out about 2x/week.

- No car, though I occasionally ZipCar or mooch my GF's. CalTrain and Clipper card are paid by my company.

My net worth on Mint has increased roughly $50-100k/year since I began working here, due to cash savings and stock vesting. I take an international vacation every year, and visit my family 3x/year.

I previously worked in the Midwest and life wasn't nearly as fun, nor was I making as much money. More importantly, I didn't have job flexibility. The workplaces were terrible there (SV culture, silly as it can be, is much friendlier to employees), and there weren't as many jobs. They also didn't pay for public transport, give you equity bonuses, pay for your meals, or had office snacks. A spacious house couldn't make up for all of those differences.

I'm glad I came to SF, despite its downsides (like less space, commuting, etc). There is a big trend in bashing it, but if you're good at what you do and know how to manage your money, you can do pretty well here. Not to mention have a higher quality of life. And if I decide to move back (which is likely, so I can be closer to family) I'll go back with an amazing CV and probably better career options.

Stop listening to haters. Don't knock it till you try it.

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