Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help • Hacker News Board

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#101

Post by mikeash » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 3:22 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #99

earthtolazlo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the coal-fired plants cheerfully mentioned in the article strikes you as good for the environment?

What's the bar for ecological spending? They should use more expensive energy solutions than say America? Why? I'd criticize each American coal plant in turn, before turning to blame 3rd-world development.

I don't know exactly where the bar is, but I would propose that it lies somewhere above the point where going outside makes your eyes and nose burn because the air is so awful.

The US is not some magical pollution-free paradise, but at least the air is comfortably breathable here 365 days a year in most places.

It's amusing when the authorities put out an air quality alert here in the DC area. It's important for sensitive populations, but it's almost impossible for a normal person to even notice the difference. A code red air quality day in DC would be a delightfully clear and clean day in Beijing.

They should use cleaner energy solutions because they're killing a shitload of people right now. Dirty coal is only cheaper if you ignore the costs imposed by the pollution.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#102

Post by mikeash » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 3:25 PM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #63

guelo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you make a $100k per year and take out a $60k mortgage, that seems very reasonable. If the railway is going to make their economy more productive and efficient then it seems like a really good idea.

People buy cars that are worth more than their yearly salary and it's a common thing. Spend 100% of your yearly effort on a thing that will be worth 25% less in twelve months. Plus it costs probably about $5,000 per year to own and operate a vehicle.

Is that really a common thing? Cars depreciate rapidly and buying one that costs more than your early salary sounds like a complete disaster to me. Maybe the people I know are just unusually financially responsible?

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#103

Post by dangjc » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #2

Great news for fans of rail and Africans alike. Also: environment is happier. I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. What's their secret?

China has a current account surplus (they export more goods than they import). To keep their exchange rate down, they export the capital back out, funding things like rail in Africa. It's not the free market. Much of the surplus savings/capital in China is inside state controlled banks and conglomerates. Average Chinese citizens have a hard time taking capital outside the country, which is a driving force behind their overpriced real estate and the popularity of bitcoin there.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#104

Post by vinay427 » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

luckystartup wrote: post #74

Does this open up any investment or business opportunities? I feel like the shipping and railroad industry is enormous and impenetrable, but there must be some smaller opportunities in here. Even if it's something sort of intangible, like "increasing transparency and fighting corruption". Because you know some percentage of this money went into the wrong pockets. If you were just a programmer from a western country,…

Considering many Indians don't speak Hindi natively or at all, I would strongly recommend one of the other options. Most higher-level business in India is conducted (or can easily be conducted) in English, and many upper-class or entrepreneurial Indians are more comfortable with English than Hindi.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#105

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

luckystartup wrote: post #74

Does this open up any investment or business opportunities? I feel like the shipping and railroad industry is enormous and impenetrable, but there must be some smaller opportunities in here. Even if it's something sort of intangible, like "increasing transparency and fighting corruption". Because you know some percentage of this money went into the wrong pockets. If you were just a programmer from a western country,…

English is absolutely required, but you are already there.

Otherwise, Mandarin isn't that useful actually, as most Chinese you work with will speak better English than your Chinese could ever be, and anyways, finding a bilingual Chinese is not that hard. I'm not sure, from a business perspective, if learning it is productive; but it makes sense from an enrichment perspective.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#106

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #101

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the bar for ecological spending? They should use more expensive energy solutions than say America? Why? I'd criticize each American coal plant in turn, before turning to blame 3rd-world development.

I don't know exactly where the bar is, but I would propose that it lies somewhere above the point where going outside makes your eyes and nose burn because the air is so awful. The US is not some magical pollution-free paradise, but at least the air is comfortably breathable here 365 days a year in most places. It's amusing when the authorities put out an air quality alert here in the DC area. It's important for sens…

And that's the situation in Ethiopia? I'm not sure it is. So again, they're using a cost-sensitive solution with possibly little ecological impact, in comparison to the rest of the world anyway.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#107

Post by mikeash » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #106

mikeash wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know exactly where the bar is, but I would propose that it lies somewhere above the point where going outside makes your eyes and nose burn because the air is so awful. The US is not some magical pollution-free paradise, but at least the air is comfortably breathable here 365 days a year in most places. It's amusing when the authorities put out an air quality alert here in the DC area. It's important for sens…

And that's the situation in Ethiopia? I'm not sure it is. So again, they're using a cost-sensitive solution with possibly little ecological impact, in comparison to the rest of the world anyway.

The plants aren't built yet, so you wouldn't expect to see their impact yet. If you want to see what it might look like, look at another place where similar things are already built.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#108

Post by akiselev » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #78

matt4077 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

– They can finance stuff like this on credit unchecked by ny public opposition to growing national debt – Having started later than western countries, their public debt (41% GDP) is much lower – High GDP growth rates further lower the effective burden of their debt – They can act largely unencumbered by the historic debt of colonialism, while western countries face opposition both internally as well as locally in the…

> They have less qualms of working with some regimes with less-than-stellar records on human rights Citation needed. US corporations not only readily work with dodgy regimes, they also work with drug cartels. China has horrible human rights records, but US corporations readily deal with the Chinese govt when there is money or market-share to be gained.

Since when do US corporations represent the people of the United States and their government? The US has done, and continues to do, some evil shit but there is clearly a much more effective feedback loop between American politicians and their constituents than between the Politburo and the Chinese population. That feedback loop includes peoples' beliefs in the principles of the United States and the Constitution, even though a tiny minority (corporate executives) clearly do not.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#109

Post by akiselev » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #51

noonespecial wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Africa is China's California. Whoa. I hope this time around, the Africans aren't the Indians.

How much do you know about the history of Africa and relations with Europe over the past few hundred years?

Or the history of California, for that matter. By the time Native American tribes in California made contact with the invaders, the United States was decades away from becoming an independent country. By the time America and Mexico went to war, 90% of them had already died due to diseases spread by Russian fur traders and Spanish missionaries.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#110

Post by fspeech » Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

lazaroclapp wrote: post #68

fspeech wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDP per capita Ethiopia: $505 (2013) GDP per capita Argentina: $14715 (2013) The impact of a railroad (and therefore ROI whether measured financially or just socially) is bound to be higher for Ethiopia, esp since it is the first and only to connect the landlocked country to a major sea port.

I mean, you are not wrong. But I don't see how that's a reply to my post. Also, to make it clear, I am (roughly) from the region, and the joke about Argentinian defaults was meant to be gently poking fun at their history with it, since LatAm and loans came up.

For a country with such low GDP the debt to GDP ratio is not a good indicator of its future. If the country's economy performs at all its GDP could go up multiple times. The situation is different for a middle income country such as Argentina. One can't reasonably expect Argentinian GDP to go up multiple times so the debt is a lot more onerous relative to the GDP. There is a well know "middle income trap" that is hard to escape. The economic upgrade required to move to the developed status from the middle income rung is much harder than what is required to move up from a very low base (really just "normalize") such as Ethiopia.