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Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

theguardian.com

131–140 of 264 posts

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#131

One thing I've wondered (and I hope this isn't an inflammatory question) is if a breed in dogs is analogous to race in humans? If that's wrong, does the idea of breed have any human equivalent? Does race have any equivalent in dogs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics

(It's the most inflammatory of questions!)

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#132
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really a case-by-case basis thing. I grew up with a mutt that I loved dearly. My parents got her because my Dad had read something or other in (I think) Popular Science about how the "dog of the future" would be a mutt, and the mutting of genes would suppress bad recessive traits. Then she got sick as a puppy, had an allergic reaction to her medication, and suffered permanent brain damage. That having been said,…

A mutt could still be the offspring of two pure bred dogs and have inherited genetic problems from both.

Exactly. Mutts may often be better than their purebred parents (by various objective and subjective criteria), but in the end it'll take a few generations of mutts and, well, survival of the fittest before you can see a general trend towards improvements in health and longevity.

Genetics are a lottery, starting with unhealthy parents the odds are against the offspring. It'll take generations for the population as a whole to move towards being healthier on average.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#134

One thing I've wondered (and I hope this isn't an inflammatory question) is if a breed in dogs is analogous to race in humans? If that's wrong, does the idea of breed have any human equivalent? Does race have any equivalent in dogs?

To an extent, we can abstract dogs away as a thing we can categorize with detachment.

To start categorizing humans in such a manner invites similar detachment, with the hazard of conclusions potentially being applied to people.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#135
post #28

There was a great video I saw about how "purebred" dogs are essentially a cesspool of genetic disorders, and how we need to start taking active steps to bring back genetic diversity in our dogs. It was eye opening to see that the pedigrees we put on a pedestal are actually putting our dogs through a host of abnormalities and health complications. https://youtu.be/aCv10_WvGxo

I don't think you can make a blanket statement about whether you can manage to retain breed traits without damning the dogs. If I had to slap down a guess on what is going on. The #1 issue is targeting cosmetic traits that are anatomically not functional. The #2 issue is breeders not prioritizing health over conforming to the breed standard. Pet grade purebreds may not look quite perfect to a discerning eye, but they…

The problem is population size, breeders rarely have more than a few hundred dogs and lose diversity though selection, which given short lifespans quickly leads to problems.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#136

One thing I've wondered (and I hope this isn't an inflammatory question) is if a breed in dogs is analogous to race in humans? If that's wrong, does the idea of breed have any human equivalent? Does race have any equivalent in dogs?

All dogs can still interbreed, so they're still the same species. They're different enough from wolves that they're given a different sub-species, sort of like Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis. However, the variety within domesticated dogs is similar to race.

What makes dogs breeds so different is that the dog genome is extremely plastic: it has a lot of room for variation as evidenced by how far pugs have come from wolves, even though theoretically they can still mate and produce fertile offspring.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#137

One thing I've wondered (and I hope this isn't an inflammatory question) is if a breed in dogs is analogous to race in humans? If that's wrong, does the idea of breed have any human equivalent? Does race have any equivalent in dogs?

Seems like a fair question. Dogs seem very versatile. Dogs are apparently like neonatal wolves, can we breed neonatal humans?

What do you mean by neonatal in this instance? My use of that word would be 'relating to newborn babies'... so "can we breed neonatal humans" seems to imply a different usage?

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#138
post #28

There was a great video I saw about how "purebred" dogs are essentially a cesspool of genetic disorders, and how we need to start taking active steps to bring back genetic diversity in our dogs. It was eye opening to see that the pedigrees we put on a pedestal are actually putting our dogs through a host of abnormalities and health complications. https://youtu.be/aCv10_WvGxo

I don't think you can make a blanket statement about whether you can manage to retain breed traits without damning the dogs. If I had to slap down a guess on what is going on. The #1 issue is targeting cosmetic traits that are anatomically not functional. The #2 issue is breeders not prioritizing health over conforming to the breed standard. Pet grade purebreds may not look quite perfect to a discerning eye, but they…

> I don't think you can make a blanket statement about whether you can manage to retain breed traits without damning the dogs.

> If you control for #1 and #2 is there still a higher incidence of issues? Probably. Why would reducing diversity be a free lunch?

You just answered your own question. Is it theoretically possible for any species (including humans) to be purebred/inbred while still avoiding the whole host of genetic disorders and health complications? Sure, anything is possible. Is it likely? Of course not. The video does a pretty good job of showing how so many purebred dogs have worse health compared to their mutt counterparts.

You bring up a good point about eating meat. Most of us are willing to trade off animal welfare/suffering for human pleasure and aesthetics, so why not apply the same principle to dogs. One argument is that most people who adopt dogs do so with the genuine intention to love them and care for their welfare/health. In fact, people get so attached to their dogs that they spend a great deal of money to promote their health, and deeply mourn their suffering/death. Given this, it only makes sense for dog owners to adopt mutts.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#139

One thing I've wondered (and I hope this isn't an inflammatory question) is if a breed in dogs is analogous to race in humans? If that's wrong, does the idea of breed have any human equivalent? Does race have any equivalent in dogs?

It's my understanding that breed in dogs would be more analogous to ethnicity in humans.

Whereas certain breeds of dog are prone to developing certain medical conditions, like hip dysplasia or heart failure, certain ethnicities of human are more likely to develop certain medical conditions, like Tay-Sachs or Sickle Cell Anemia.

Re: Pugs are anatomical disasters. Vets must speak out–even if it’s bad for business

#140
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren't apes or monkeys. http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/phylogeny/taxonomy/humans...

That is a very long-winded and opinionated article just to make the point that "ape" is not a taxonomic term, and it's not used completely consistently. In any case, please don't promote anti-science articles (this one begins by complaining about "those who accept and promote evolution").

The writer is a Professor of Anthropology. Don't jump to conclusions.
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