Earlier quoted context omitted.
> which has a JS runtime taking several minutes to load on 2G source? the entire goal of AMP is to load pages quickly
Minutes might be slightly overselling it but AMP has a bit over 100KB of render-blocking JavaScript alone before you get the actual content. Here's the current top story when I hit news.google.com in a mobile browser: https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.was... Loading that in a simulated 2G connection takes about 80 seconds and at least 30 seconds of that is waiting to display anything you care a…
The web sucks if you have a slow connection
241–250 of 622 posts
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Funny anecdote about the freeway system of southern California. When they were initially planning the system in 1930s, 40s, they were planning to have the system in use for next 100 years. So they built over sized roads (like 10 lane freeway, without having to stop for traffic lights, that go THROUGH center of a major city). When the system proved so car friendly, more and more people moved in and bought cars. Within…
The original designers of the interstates didn't want the roads to go through the downtown areas. The idea was for the high-speed roads to go near cities, and have spur roads (3-digit interstate numbers that start with an odd number) connect them - like the design of the original Autobahn. But there was a coalition of mayors and municipal associations that pressured Congress to have the roads pass through their towns…
They RIPPED it out thanks to lobbying by car companies and tire companies. Yay to lobbyists.
Now, it takes a billion to build a few miles of a subway/lightrail system that practically goes no where...
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hah! A Jevons Effect[1] in a web site's bandwidth! [1] When an increase in the efficiency with which a resource is used causes total usage to increase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
I'm not sure why this gets a special term. It sounds like basic supply and demand. If you decrease the price of something by increasing the efficiency of production, you will obviously capture more of the demand curve. What am I missing?
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#244Well 3G is as low as you can get somewhere deep in the woods, not really a problem...
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hah! A Jevons Effect[1] in a web site's bandwidth! [1] When an increase in the efficiency with which a resource is used causes total usage to increase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
I'm not sure why this gets a special term. It sounds like basic supply and demand. If you decrease the price of something by increasing the efficiency of production, you will obviously capture more of the demand curve. What am I missing?
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#246I'm currently building a web-based application to store JVM threaddumps. This includes a JS-based frontend to efficiently sort and filter sets of JVM threads (for example based on thread names, or classes included in thread traces). Or the ability to visualize locking structures with d3, so you can see that a specific class is a bottle neck because it has many locks and many threads are waiting for it.
I'm doing that in a Ruby/Vue application because those choices make the app easy. You can upload a threaddump via curl, and share it with everyone via links. You can share sorted and filtered thread sets, you can share visualizations with a mostly readable link. This is good because it's easy to - automatically - collect and upload thread ddumps, and it's easy to collaborate with a problematic locking situation.
So, I'd call that a fairly heavy web-based application. I'm relying on JS, because JS makes my user experience better. JS can fetch a threaddump, cache it in the browser, and execute filters based on the cached data pretty much as fast as a native application would. Except you can share and link it easily, so it's better than visualvm or TDA.
But with all that heavywheight, fast moving web bollocks... Isn't it natural to think about web latency? To me it's the only sensible thing to webpack/gulp-concat/whatever my entire app so all that heavy JS is one big GET. It's the only sensible thing to fetch all information about a threaddump in on GET just to cache it and have it available. It's the only right thing to do or else network latency eats you alive.
Am I that estranged by now by having worked on one low-latency, high-throughput application by now? To avoid confusion, the threaddump storage is neither low-latency, nor high-throughput. Talking java with 100k+ events/s and < 1ms in-server latency there.
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it'll take them OVER THREE HOURS I remember frequently spending three hours downloading 5MB files over dial-up in the late 90s. Mostly software, not videos+, but it really just felt like a regular thing back then. + Computers nearly didn't have the power to decode video—or even audio—in realtime back then, unless it was the entirely uncompressed kind. I recall ripping a CD to WAV and finding out half-way that my 2G…
Yes, my point was specifically about videos, and I've elaborated on it further in the post above. I, too, remember quite vividly waiting 30-40 minutes to download a 5MB installer for WinAmp and ICQ. I honestly wouldn't even know where to look for videos in the 90s internet. Most people probably didn't have the upload speed to even consider sharing them online.
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hah! A Jevons Effect[1] in a web site's bandwidth! [1] When an increase in the efficiency with which a resource is used causes total usage to increase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
I'm not sure why this gets a special term. It sounds like basic supply and demand. If you decrease the price of something by increasing the efficiency of production, you will obviously capture more of the demand curve. What am I missing?
See: the entire popular support for efficiency mandates.
(Edit: Also, this very example -- I certainly didn't expect that a faster site would allow that many more users: my model was more "either they want to see your site, or they don't", i.e. inelastic demand.)
The (common) error is to neglect the additional uses people will put a resource to when its cost of use goes down. ("Great news! We get free water now! Wha ... hey, why are you putting in an ultra-thirsty lawn??! You don't need that!")
Also, I wouldn't call it basic supply and demand; depending on the specifics (inelasticiy of demand, mainly), total usage may not actually go up with efficiency.
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think your memory of the late 90's is actually from the early 90's ;) I remember the first realtime mp3 player on Windows, Fraunhofer IIS' WinPlay3, which launched in '95. Then Winamp came out in '97 and blew our minds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinPlay3
You needed about a 100mhz CPU to playback mp3s without skipping. Seemed to hold both on my PPC mac and pentium windows machine.
Re: The web sucks if you have a slow connection
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
I chatted about just this timeout issue with an engineer from a major CDN while he was at my house enjoying the dialup. Seems like simply a matter of resource management; slow connections do use more resources. Most CDN customers don't care or don't know that a few percent of the US population is getting their web browsing broken by timeouts, so there's no push back. (NASA has their wacky ways around the issue for IS…
I'm surprised they need anything. I get my home internet from a satellite in geosynchronous orbit and it works fine other than the latency. No human has got that far from Earth since Apollo in the 1970s, so my home internet has to be worse than anyone NASA cares give internet. (though I have no idea what bandwidth NASA has)
of course the same is true of ground stations... I'm not actually sure how they do it but they probably don't need as high-gain of an antenna to reach them.