If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…
Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
221–230 of 322 posts
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…
On one hand, I think that's a great thought experiment. You're right, there are nuances here, and oversimplifying into good vs evil doesn't serve anyone well. On the other hand, it's sort of a disingenuous thought experiment, because everyone is already in 100% agreement that Nazi Germany, ISIS, Saddam, etc are morally awful. However we've been brainwashed into thinking that we're saints. So which perception is it th…
(I also think it's not that great to cartoonishly portray Nazi Germany / ISIS / Saddam as one dimensional stock evil cartoon characters; this is also a sort of "brainwashing" from my perspective. Yes, these cultures also have done some awful, awful things, however I feel it is important not to erase the human impulse and circumstances that caused these to develop.)
From a general audience perspective, I'm personally pretty cynical on addressing this though. In theory, it would be nice to see an end to "mass propaganda and willful ignorance". In practice, I honestly can't think of a country in which no propaganda occurs, and there is no such thing as state secrets. The United States may have done some awful things over the last 70 years, but so have other less powerful countries. Were the situation different, and another country dominant instead of the US... well, I personally would expect very similar results. I can't think of any nation / community / tribe that doesn't do some sort of bending and filtering of worldview.
So from my perspective this really isn't a nation problem, this is a core human issue: tribalism. Resolving the issues that come up with tribalism would be great. However, given that it's such a core behavior of humanity, I think this is going to be terribly difficult, perhaps impossible, to do.
It would be nice if I was wrong...
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#223I'M KIDDING! Murder implies that there's any law to enforce whatsoever! I meant kill with premeditation!
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
On one hand, I think that's a great thought experiment. You're right, there are nuances here, and oversimplifying into good vs evil doesn't serve anyone well. On the other hand, it's sort of a disingenuous thought experiment, because everyone is already in 100% agreement that Nazi Germany, ISIS, Saddam, etc are morally awful. However we've been brainwashed into thinking that we're saints. So which perception is it th…
Some people are brainwashed into thinking that we are saints. As you can see in this thread, however, there are a fair amount of people that are quite aware of the United States' issues. (I also think it's not that great to cartoonishly portray Nazi Germany / ISIS / Saddam as one dimensional stock evil cartoon characters; this is also a sort of "brainwashing" from my perspective. Yes, these cultures also have done so…
Tribalism and propaganda are closely related, in that the former contributes to the latter. However, the same is likely true of slavery and racism, the oppression of women, discrimination against gays, etc. You can limit all of these things without ending tribalism. At least I hope so, because tribalism is baked into human nature itself.
So for example with propaganda, we can start by improving our history books and classes. And we've seen some of that over time. The way they taught kids about slavery in the 1920s, for example, was borderline criminal.
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.
My point isn't that the US is to blame for all the bad that happens in the world. There are plenty of places that are worse than we are. However, we act as if that absolves us of all wrongdoing, which is plainly absurd. I would like to counter that notion. In addition, we simply don't acknowledge what we've done. Our media won't report on it. I would like to see an end to this mass propaganda and willful ignorance. F…
This is spot on, and the biggest difference between America and other countries which commit atrocities. America is allowed to forget. And it's not a trivial or minor difference at all.
Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely incomparable.
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…
I think much of this 'freedom' has come from The USA's overly elevated global position coming out of WW2. The USA prospered economically, scientifically and socially all while Western Europe was on its knees. The EU has been, in my eyes at least an attempt at rebalancing of Western Power.
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
We had elections in communist Czechslovakia too, where the party got 99% of votes, just like with Assads. Was it democratic? No. It is frankly ridiculous to say that any elections with these kinds of results are in any way meaningful expressions of popular support. We also had forced demonstration of support for the government. Had to go into parades, etc. The question is if you would be willing to go there now and p…
just going to prison in Syria is very lenient punishment [0] [0] www.cnn.com/2017/02/07/middleeast/syria-executions-amnesty-international-report/
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
The older I get the more interesting and sensible Chomsky gets. Until a few years ago I was perceiving him as boring and monotone and now I am seeing a fierce warrior of truth* holding language as his weapon. This 9 min. excerpt on propaganda terms in the Media is especially appropriate. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmoXze-Higc *I don't mean some objective truth out there but a viewpoint which is rooted in his very…
I have gone the opposite direction on him. I think the turning point was the debate with Dershowitz on Israeli/Arab problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ux4JU_sbB0 He seems to speak in broad generalities, rather than getting down into the details. I've reached a point where I need to hear the down and gritty rather than airy statements.
As did Norman Finkelstein in his own showdown with Dershowitz.
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was sh…
> Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. Vincennes believed it was shooting down an attacking Iranian fighter, not a passenger jet. It wasn't murder; it was an accident (due to faulty electronic data). We didn't give the skipper a medal for shooting down the plane; we gave him…
Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was sh…
> Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. Vincennes believed it was shooting down an attacking Iranian fighter, not a passenger jet. It wasn't murder; it was an accident (due to faulty electronic data). We didn't give the skipper a medal for shooting down the plane; we gave him…
If you want to compare situations, the Malaysian airliner flew over an active warzone, along the same path as Ukrainian military planes that were targeting the rebels.
Surely you can see the situations aren't quite the same.