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Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

militarytimes.com

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Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#201

Post by baursak »

vinceguidry wrote: post #193
wz1000 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't concerned with civilian casualties. Of course, it wouldn't go out of its way to inflict them, but it simply pays no regard to them, no matter what their scale. Look at US actions in Laos, Cambodia, and Libya for direct instances of this, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed because of US actions.

One could argue that the US has put a great deal of time, effort and R&D into saving civilian lives, through the drone program itself. The alternative to the drone program is a traditional military occupation, which would presumably have a much greater death toll, I don't have access to the research. Or, of course, simply not fighting the war at all. But it doesn't seem like that option is available.

Civilian lives? A more persuasive argument is that primarily it's a tool to be used when popular opinion at home would simply not allow another full-scale military adventure like Iraq or Afghanistan. Secondary consideration is saving US military lives. Foreign civilian lives is by far not the primary concern.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#202

Post by JackFr »

jacobush wrote: post #128
3131s wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our "defense" of Vietnam. And most people only think of Vietnam itself regarding that conflict, yet Cambodia and Laos were absolutely decimated too. The US dropped more tons of bombs on Laos and Cambodia individually than the combined amount dropped by the allied forces in WWII. There are still 80 million unexploded bombs in the Laos countryside. Landmines sold by the US and China to the Lon Nol government and the…

Hence the songs Holiday in Cambodia by the Dead Kennedys and Cambodia by Kim Wilde.

I don't think you understand the lyrics to 'Holiday in Cambodia'

'The song is an attack on a stereotypical, moralizing, privileged American college student. '

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday_in_Cambodia

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#203

Post by wtbob »

csallen wrote: post #32
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

> In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-elected government in favor of the opposition

No, we didn't: the rightful government (the Shah's) overthrew an attempted dictator. Mossadegh lived out the rest of his life in peace, and died in bed.

> Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace.

No, it wasn't reckless: the electronic data gave Vincennes good reason to believe that it was being attacked by an Iranian fighter.

> Our "defense" of Vietnam.

The 2 million South Vietnamese who fled their country after North Vietnam conquered sure seemed to have appreciated our defence: while we were there, they didn't take to the sea in boats, fleeing for their lives.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#204

Post by purple-again »

emptyfile wrote: post #105
starik36 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.

60 years was a long time ago?!

Everyone old enough to vote for the politicians in power at the time must be at least 78 years old now. How many people older than 78 are running our country right now?

Yes it was a long time ago when nearly every adult alive at the time is dead now.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#205

Post by wtbob »

linuxkerneldev wrote: post #56
cyberferret wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was living in South East Asia when the USS Vincennes incident took place, and it was widely reported there. But I do remember when I returned to Australia, hardly anybody knew about what had happened. That was my first introduction to 'curated news' by various countries. Of course, a few years later when the family of the Captain of the Vincennes was targeted in a failed car bomb attack, we heard a bit about this '…

> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was sh…

> Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault.

Vincennes believed it was shooting down an attacking Iranian fighter, not a passenger jet. It wasn't murder; it was an accident (due to faulty electronic data). We didn't give the skipper a medal for shooting down the plane; we gave him an end-of-tour award. And I don't know what the big deal with paying weregild is: that's what you do.

Has Russia paid anything to the families of the Malaysian airliner shoot-down?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#206

Post by wtbob »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #179
enkid wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He got a medal for completing his tour. He didn't get a medal for shooting down the plane. It's normal to get a medal whenever you move in the military. Not saying he deserved one, but the military wasn't going out if it's way to reward the shoot down if a civilian airliner.

The military also didn't go out of its way to punish recklessly shooting down a civilian aircraft. The guy should have been court martialed, but at the very least not given a medal

> The military also didn't go out of its way to punish recklessly shooting down a civilian aircraft.

It wasn't reckless: it was the right call based on the data Vincennes had, which showed that an Iranian fighter was able to kill it.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#207

Post by csallen »

JackFr wrote: post #199
csallen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

>Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. 290 fatalities, including women and children. 8th deadliest disaster in aviation history, nary a peep in the US media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 . But they are the reckless terrorists to watch out for. ' Nary a pee…

Compare it to the Soviets shooting down Korean Air Lines Flight 007 in 1983. Chomsky writes, "For the month of September 1983 alone, the New York Times index—the very densely printed index of articles that have appeared in the Times—has seven full pages devoted to this story. That's the index, for one month alone. The liberal Boston Globe on the first day of coverage had its first ten full pages devoted to that story and nothing else."

That's what a peep looks like.

What do you think would happen if Iran were to shoot down an American commercial flight in US waters/airspace with hundreds of families on board?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#208

Post by purple-again »

saiya-jin wrote: post #173
avar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous. Of course the comparison is ridiculous. That's my whole point. But this is the comparison the grandparent I'm replying to is making. I.e. that the U.S. bombs some countries while being concerned about civilian casualties, and terrorists respond with something like the 9/11 attacks where they're explicitly trying to inflict…

needless to say, you are wrong in your statements. US has no regard for life apart from US citizens (and this is a topic on its own), practice demonstrated again and again in various aspects of life, war, international affairs etc. lesser evil ain't no good in any book out there. we can and should strive for better

What about all the other western nations currently using the US military as their military in exchange for the land our bases are built on? You think we wouldn't sacrifice 10,000 soldiers lives to stop an invasion of Iceland?

Saying we have no regard for anyone but US citizens is just plain disengenous. Saying we have less regard for the people of the world not allied with us then we do for ourselves and our allies is true. Who doesn't?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#209

Post by coldcode »

wtbob wrote: post #205
linuxkerneldev wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was sh…

> Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. Vincennes believed it was shooting down an attacking Iranian fighter, not a passenger jet. It wasn't murder; it was an accident (due to faulty electronic data). We didn't give the skipper a medal for shooting down the plane; we gave him…

No, but horrible things down by other people doesn't really have anything to do with stuff we do. We can't control other countries (well without forcing things) but we can and should control what we do.
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