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Grappling with Go

blog.ntpsec.org

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Re: Grappling with Go

#21

Post by _ph_ »

pjmlp wrote: post #7
xiaoma wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the most successful operating system created in one of those languages?

Probably Oberon, which was used during several years at ETHZ across the IT department of the university, including the secretary personal. Was also the source for many of Plan 9 UI ideas. What is most successful operating system created in Go or Rust?

Interestingly, one of the Go core creators, Robert Griesemer did work at the ETHZ and seemed to have gotten a proper dosis of the Wirth languages which then strongly shaped Go.

Re: Grappling with Go

#22

Post by samuell »

pjmlp wrote: post #7
xiaoma wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the most successful operating system created in one of those languages?

Probably Oberon, which was used during several years at ETHZ across the IT department of the university, including the secretary personal. Was also the source for many of Plan 9 UI ideas. What is most successful operating system created in Go or Rust?

Operating system written in Go:

Clive (https://lsub.org/ls/clive.html)

Re: Grappling with Go

#23

Post by nicoburns »

koffiezet wrote: post #19
blub wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are competing with eachother! Unless Rust wants to position itself as embedded-only it will compete with Go for higher level tasks.

No they're not. Go is very easy to pick up, Rust is not. That point alone should be enough. Without prior knowledge of both, no sane person would consider writing a browser-engine in Go, and yet that's exactly what they're doing with Rust. Just as no sane person would pick up Rust to write generic web services in that scenario. Put Rust and Go in front of a python coder who wrote dozens of web services using flask -…

The question of Go or Rust for something like web services is not as clear cut in my opinion. I have JavaScript/PHP background, and have recently learnt Rust for just this use case. Rust is slightly more complex (but really not that much, nothing close to as bad as C++), but also offers more correctness guarantees. Both are good choices, hence these discussions.

Re: Grappling with Go

#24

Post by szemet »

koffiezet wrote: post #19
blub wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are competing with eachother! Unless Rust wants to position itself as embedded-only it will compete with Go for higher level tasks.

No they're not. Go is very easy to pick up, Rust is not. That point alone should be enough. Without prior knowledge of both, no sane person would consider writing a browser-engine in Go, and yet that's exactly what they're doing with Rust. Just as no sane person would pick up Rust to write generic web services in that scenario. Put Rust and Go in front of a python coder who wrote dozens of web services using flask -…

'Put Rust and Go in front of a python coder who wrote dozens of web services using flask - and I am pretty sure I can predict what tool he'll pick'

It depends what part you show. For example Rust has an experimental flask/sinatra/... inspired library (https://rocket.rs/overview/), and although Go has similar things you can't cut boilerplate that much:

So in the end it may depend why someone likes python in the first place: because of the concise high level constructs or because of ease of use.

Re: Grappling with Go

#25

Post by Outpox »

nicoburns wrote: post #23
koffiezet wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not. Go is very easy to pick up, Rust is not. That point alone should be enough. Without prior knowledge of both, no sane person would consider writing a browser-engine in Go, and yet that's exactly what they're doing with Rust. Just as no sane person would pick up Rust to write generic web services in that scenario. Put Rust and Go in front of a python coder who wrote dozens of web services using flask -…

The question of Go or Rust for something like web services is not as clear cut in my opinion. I have JavaScript/PHP background, and have recently learnt Rust for just this use case. Rust is slightly more complex (but really not that much, nothing close to as bad as C++), but also offers more correctness guarantees. Both are good choices, hence these discussions.

JS/Php dev here as well, I've been learning Rust for some weeks now and it is hard for me. I've never really done any C/C++ (only Java in my school) so a lot of concept are quite new. I'm currently working on an API wrapper in Rust to improve myself, it's been a week already and I'm still working on it whereas I could have done it in 30mn in JS.

Re: Grappling with Go

#26

Post by pjmlp »

_ph_ wrote: post #21
pjmlp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably Oberon, which was used during several years at ETHZ across the IT department of the university, including the secretary personal. Was also the source for many of Plan 9 UI ideas. What is most successful operating system created in Go or Rust?

Interestingly, one of the Go core creators, Robert Griesemer did work at the ETHZ and seemed to have gotten a proper dosis of the Wirth languages which then strongly shaped Go.

Yes, which is why Go has Oberon-2 syntax for methods and also an unsafe package that is similar to SYSTEM.

Go could be used for doing a, lets call it, Goberon.

It just needs someone with enough motivation for doing it.

Re: Grappling with Go

#27

Post by stevekemp »

I continue to be surprised by the sheer amount of writing we see about ntpsec. The project was started over two years ago, and yet progress reports seem very optimistic and self-congratulatory, despite an obvious lack of progress.

Sure rewriting "bits" of things, with more features, and adding my python sounds useful. But here we are 500+ days since the project started and there are only minor experiments in moving from C.

I get the feeling this is one of those projects which will never be complete. Perhaps not a bad thing, providing those involved are having fun, but so much verbiage to say so.

Re: Grappling with Go

#29

Post by bluejekyll »

Outpox wrote: post #25
nicoburns wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question of Go or Rust for something like web services is not as clear cut in my opinion. I have JavaScript/PHP background, and have recently learnt Rust for just this use case. Rust is slightly more complex (but really not that much, nothing close to as bad as C++), but also offers more correctness guarantees. Both are good choices, hence these discussions.

JS/Php dev here as well, I've been learning Rust for some weeks now and it is hard for me. I've never really done any C/C++ (only Java in my school) so a lot of concept are quite new. I'm currently working on an API wrapper in Rust to improve myself, it's been a week already and I'm still working on it whereas I could have done it in 30mn in JS.

Kudos to your determination! I hope you find a path where it starts clicking.

Re: Grappling with Go

#30

Post by fnord123 »

koffiezet wrote: post #19
blub wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are competing with eachother! Unless Rust wants to position itself as embedded-only it will compete with Go for higher level tasks.

No they're not. Go is very easy to pick up, Rust is not. That point alone should be enough. Without prior knowledge of both, no sane person would consider writing a browser-engine in Go, and yet that's exactly what they're doing with Rust. Just as no sane person would pick up Rust to write generic web services in that scenario. Put Rust and Go in front of a python coder who wrote dozens of web services using flask -…

I have a dream that one day rustc will be able to output go-mangled-symbols with lifetimes integrating into the Go GC. My dream is that we can flesh out a project in Go for good performance and then extend it in Rust without stack swapping. Then we can bash out projects in Go and still have face melting performance with zero overhead abstractions. Go and Rust should be besties!
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