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Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

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Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#101
post #95
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous. But saying that the US has not used its military strength for its own benefit and at the expense of the people of other countries is ridiculous. The US staged a coup in Guatemala at the behest of the United Fruit Company, when the democratically elected Prime Minister of Guatemala wanted to end UFCs exploitative labor practi…

I see it as different periods, really. The decisions are made by people, and there were different people in power in 1940s United States than in 1980s United States.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#102
post #71
post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

This is not a good thought experiment. A better one would be what would each side in a conflict do AND it was the most powerful nation in the world economically, militarily, culturally, and diplomatically and was the arbiter of a global system that prioritizes economic growth and benefits more from trade with a sovereign than resource extraction via explicit, systematic repression from a puppet government. The United States simply has nothing to gain and everything to lose for applying those levels of violence that you consider evil. It is actively against their interest. Enslaving Germany and Japan after WWII would be counter to their objective as enslaved populations are not as efficient or productive. A democratic Japan is the world's 3rd largest economy and is an important strategic and trade partner. A brutally oppressed, unproductive Japan would harbor resentment and require an expensive, remote military garrison to contain.

I believe that it is inappropriate to apply a moral dimension to the behavior of nation-states. In conflicts, the logic of violence is weighed between costs and benefits. When your adversary is an enemy of God, a spawn of Satan or some other type of evil, there is no moral good, no benefit in showing them mercy, it is in fact weakness and a moral failing not to expunge such evil. When you think of yourself as the "good guys", the other side is necessarily evil. Evil must be vanquished.

That's my main argument against having a "good vs evil" worldview. It becomes easier to justify horrific actions directed at evil-doers. It's a binary, and, frankly, very naive and ignorant way of thinking about the world. Even in the canonical conflict of good vs evil in the 20th century, WWII, there were heroes on both sides, "good" and honorable men such as Erwin Rommel.

One should always be wary of any group that explicitly refers to itself as the good guys. That should not need to be stated. Usually when someone says that, they're doing some heinous shit and are saying it to convince themselves that their actions are a means to an end for the "greater good"

Let's be honest, this is tribalism, a matter of where in time and space you happened to be born. You are a westerner. Your side, where you are born, is the side that is the force for good. Try this thought experiment: imagine you were born in the ungoverned area of Pakistan, and, while attending a wedding, a faceless drone drops a bomb on the reception. Are you going to blame uncle Nazir, who came out of hiding to attend? Maybe he bears responsibility, but most bystanders will blame the perpetrator of the bombing. If one happened to be around a CIA station director when a suicide bomber detonated, I doubt many people are going to blame him or the United States for that.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#103
post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

However, there is objective evil. ISIS is objective evil, for example. Russia or the USA are in the gray zone, where some of they actions are evil, some others are simply stupid, and some other have sense. So, I understand your point, everything is complex, but we should avoid losing our moral compass. Some evil is really evil.

Edited: typos.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#104
post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Except bombs are dropped by the military and the victims of the terror attacks are civilians.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#105
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.

60 years was a long time ago?!

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#106
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Right. The record of history is pretty clear that world powers can and have acted within a broad latitude of barbarity towards weaker nations, mostly on the 'barbaric' end of the spectrum. The record of history is also pretty clear that the US is the most docile and harmless of world powers that has ever existed. There's a reason we call it the Pax Americana--the 'overwhelming power' of the US has contributed to the…

With regards to domestic policy, the US was miles better than the USSR. With regards to foreign policy, the distinction isnt anywhere near that clear. The US has supported mass murders in Guatemala, Iran, Nicaragua, Pakistan/Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq since WW2 and I'm sure I'm missing a few.

The nuclear arms race was also hardly one sided, and Kennedy in particular has a terrible record when it came to the imminent nuclear destruction of the world. The Cuban missile crisis was sparked of by NATO and US troop movements in Turkey and Eastern Europe.

The United Nations in particular was deliberately crippled by the US. There are quotes from officials under Nixon and Ford who said they were deliberately instructed to sabotage UN proceedings relating to the Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh. There are also numerous such instances where the US has dramatically opposed international consensus and blocked the functioning of international agencies relating to Israel/Palestine, Rwanda, Cuba, Indonesia/East Timor and Nicaragua.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#107
post #21

Wow... 1,700 air strikes just last year alone. That's more than 1 air strike every 6 hour for entire year! I'm wondering how much damage is being inflicted on civilians here. Not just people getting killed, but people becoming homeless or their livelihood getting destroyed. If these are not ultra-precise air strikes then we would be giving birth to future heavily disgruntled middle east population.

Ever heard of ISIS?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#108
post #11

i'm disappointed that hardly any members of the media or Democratic party establishment talk about Obama's expansion of the drone program. we have a long list of names. the executive branch of our government curates the list unilaterally and in secret. then, we cross names off the list by killing them. sometimes, they're American citizens. often, they're in countries we're at peace or even allied with. there are chil…

> i'm disappointed that i haven't seen a single member of the media or Democratic party establishment talk about Obama's expansion of the drone program. You must not read a lot of media then. Pretty much every source of media I read on a regular basis has commented about the drone assassination program, Obama's expansion of it, the questionable legality of it (particularly as it applies to US citizens), and generally…

Thought experiment - what is worse - a) expanding a drone program and killing thousands (including by the US's own admission 100+ innocent civilians, but probably many more given that the US classes all military aged men in a strike zone as 'combatants' regardless of whether they are actual combatants or not), or b) issuing a temporary visa ban to a large number of those countries actively being bombed by the above-mentioned drone program?

Does your answer match with which one has seen the most outrage from the press and the general populace? Why or why not?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#109
post #21

Wow... 1,700 air strikes just last year alone. That's more than 1 air strike every 6 hour for entire year! I'm wondering how much damage is being inflicted on civilians here. Not just people getting killed, but people becoming homeless or their livelihood getting destroyed. If these are not ultra-precise air strikes then we would be giving birth to future heavily disgruntled middle east population.

The most recent episode of PBS Frontline offers an interesting view on this. Note that anyone 15 years old or younger living in Iraq today has never even seen a version of their country that isn't an active warzone, and it's only getting worse. The US are seemingly creating new terrorists faster than they are killing existing ones.

[deleted]

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#110
I feel the best popular representation of US military policy is the comic "Addicted to War" by Joel Andreas. http://www.addictedtowar.com/book.html

Everyone should be offered that as a reference before Chomsky, and then prodded onwards to Chomsky if they want to read more on this topic.

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