Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

webkit.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–440 of 650 posts

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#431

Post by pjmlp »

ioquatix wrote: post #415
pharrington wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say Vulkan drivers will, for the forseeable future, be of lower quality than D3D12 drivers and lack official support. Lets assume I blindly accept this faith-based argument. WebGPU than, must be implemented on top of D3D12 and Metal, two already very different APIs. What, than, makes a hypothetical WebVulkan unfeasible in contrast to WebGPU?

Keep in mind that DX12 doesn't support Windows 7 or 8, so that cuts out a significant portion of the existing market.

Still higher than GNU/Linux will ever be.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#432

Post by pjmlp »

ioquatix wrote: post #348
MBCook wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Nvidia and AMD including Vulcan drivers. Intel isn't and said they don't plan to. Intel has a HUGE market share thanks to integrated graphics. There are other companies too.

According to https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/developing-games-and... Intel DOES plan on releasing official production quality drivers at some point.

Planning and actually releasing is not the same thing.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#433

Post by pjmlp »

snuxoll wrote: post #270
corysama wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concrete example: The PS4 dashboard is actually WebGL via Chromium ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhtcUvi0BQ&t=55m25s ) I don't think PS4 supports OpenGL, DX or Vulkan. Sony has their own API.

Sony has historically supported a variant of OpenGL on the PS3 (in addition to their low level API) - I would be surprised if they don't have one for the PS4.

Besides what corysama replied, there are a few game blogs that described how bad it was, but I cannot link to them as I am behind a proxy currently.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#434

Post by hifigi »

ioquatix wrote: post #397
Rusky wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing subjective about it. Take a look at the APIs, they operate at the same level and are designed around the same principles. As for past driver quality, ask a graphics developer doing anything more complicated than a toy weekend project. OpenGL drivers are inconsistent and buggy.

> Just because it was designed to be high-performance doesn't mean it automatically wins on platform support and implementation quality. I never asserted that. I didn't even qualify what I meant by "BEST". But, let's evaluate the qualities you mention: > platform support Vulkan objectively wins here, supporting Windows 7/8/10, Linux, macOS/iOS with a wrapper, Android, etc. Intel has unofficial drivers for their x86 i…

I make no argument against what you've said except you used Valve as an "appeal to authority", when they have a vested interest in promoting Vulkan (since SteamOS is based on Linux). So of course they will be persuading developers to use Vulkan over DX12, because it broadens the domain of users who can buy an individual title on Steam.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#435

Post by pjmlp »

microcolonel wrote: post #205
om2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not complaining, we're explaining the lay of the land. Working on top of all three of these APIs is totally doable and will result in a better API for the web. Things worth noting: - We believe other browser vendors agree with us that the web API should work on all three of the major native APIs. - The web has security requirements which force us to go a bit higher-level than Vulkan anyway. I understand your de…

While Microsoft hasn't committed to supporting Vulkan first-party, every major Windows(and macOS) graphics vendor has a compliant Windows Vulkan driver which performs well, most vendors have two or three independent implementations. There are real applications being built today under the assumption that these drivers will continue to work. Also, given that Windows versions other than ten still make up more than half…

Sony and Nintendo don't support it as well.

Sony doesn't has official plans to ever doing it, as the PS4 APIs are better anyway.

Nintendo is only supporting Vulkan for easing bringing in titles to the Switch, because they actually have a better API called NVN that exposes all the graphics hardware features.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#436

Post by Teever »

MBCook wrote: post #296
ioquatix wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for Apple... For the consumer? I don't think so. As a consumer, the mobile device market is a walled garden. Are apps compatible between platforms? Do you have control over your hardware? Can you choose what software you run on your own device?

Consumers don't appear to be bothered by any of those missing freedoms.

it's hard to be consciously bothered by the lack of something that you've never experienced?

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#437

Post by pjmlp »

mwkaufma wrote: post #21
NickGerleman wrote: post #9

"The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Metal from Apple, and Vulkan from the Khronos Group. While these technologies have similar design concepts, unfortunately none are available across all platforms." So Apple, the only company not supporting Vulkan on their platforms, is complaining that there isn't a cross-platform solution?

Seriously, even fricken Nintendo is on board with Vulkan: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/287995/Nintendo_Switch_to...

Kind of, they have their own API that has better capabilities to expose the graphics hardware called NVN.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#438

Post by pjmlp »

sipos wrote: post #240
botverse wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO you are underestimating the leverage that Apple has given that macs are the tool of choice for most web developers. Apple is probably aware of this and this move looks like an anticipation.

Macs used to be popular with developers but, this has basically changed IMHO. Perhaps they are popular with web designers still but, developers seem to be using Macs no more than the rest of the population to me now. It is Apple's complete lack of support for them that has brought this about IMHO and, I think it will be the end of Apple in the (very) long run (it will be the end of them as anything other than a phone…

I hate that being a developer requires me to be a FOSS UNIX guy from HN view on the world!

Not all developers care about it.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#439

Post by pjmlp »

eddieh wrote: post #396
zamalek wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WebKit developers are pretty much the forefathers of all modern web tech. IE4 was the forefather of modern web tech[1]. > They erroneously conclude that WebGL's successor must also be a Vulkan based solution. [...] All of which is is essentially the tech version of "libtard" based arguments. No, people are sick of working against 3 different APIs. One of which is a standard. It's Microsoft doing their own thing wit…

Except, as I quoted, the GPU experts and the other browser vendors are onboard with this. This isn't Apple going at it alone like MS did. You're reenforcing my point. Thank you for that.

Except for game consoles that HN keeps forgetting.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#440

Post by dkersten »

lapfelix wrote: post #364
ioquatix wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for Apple... For the consumer? I don't think so. As a consumer, the mobile device market is a walled garden. Are apps compatible between platforms? Do you have control over your hardware? Can you choose what software you run on your own device?

> Are apps compatible between platforms That would be an awful experience for the consumers, UI/UX-wise.

And yet somehow web apps, each with their very own shirty UI and UX, that looks and works completely different than the platform you use them from, are doing just fine.
Post reply on HN