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A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

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Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#41
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally says "indicated air speed." There's no need for interpretation or assumption. If I saw a raw airspeed without and qualifier, I'd probably assume it meant indicated speed. But I fly small planes where that's the only airspeed available. If you want true airspeed, you have to take what's indicated and convert manually.

So it does. I still find this disunion of UOM disagreeable, in the way that "in thousandths, take 300 grams of acetaminophen twice daily" is troubling.

I'm not familiar with that one. Does that mean to take 300mg?

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#42
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indicated airspeed is based on the force of the oncoming air, and decreases as air gets less dense. There's some altitude where 358kt indicated is Mach 0.9. Edit: before I get more replies attempting to lecture me on how wrong I am, please look up the difference between true airspeed (how fast the air is moving past the airplane) and indicated airspeed (a measurement derived from the difference between static and dyn…

That's not correct. At 33,00 ft, Mach 0.9 is about 600Kts, the altitude charts don't go high enough for Mach 0.9 to be 358Kts - by that point yo haven't enough air to transmit sound. And if you're implying that 358kts indicated could be 600kts actual with the right tailwind - that's true, but it still wouldn't be Mach 0.9, as the speed of sound applies only to airflow over the airplane. No matter the tailwind, the ai…

Neither is this. An airplane measures indicated airspeed by sampling dynamic pressure. This happens to be useful because it has a direct correlation to various important V-speeds, such as the speed where a wing in a certain configuration generates enough lift for forward flight and so on. This is why an aircraft's V-speeds are given in KIAS. (Put another way, you get the density altitude calculation for free by relying on IAS, as the airplane gets more "inaccurate" with altitude but in actuality "accurate" from the perspective of fluids traveling over surfaces.)

As an airplane gains altitude, IAS dramatically falls versus true airspeed due to this measurement artifact. Complicating this calculation for someone approaching it physically, as you have: by regulation all aircraft calibrate to the same altimeter pressure (29.92 inHg) beyond 18,000 feet. If you think about this physically, that means a whole bunch of airplanes indicate 35,000 feet but in actuality linger around 34,000 or 36,000 or something depending on the actual atmospheric pressure. That also affects how airspeed is calculated, meaning you can't say "well, at 33,000 feet, Mach 0.9 is blah." That computation is a little more nuanced based on the way aircraft sensors are set up and, until computers, required a whiz wheel.

'mikeash is correct, here. You're correct for TAS. IAS is a weird aerospace-specific thing where it's actually helpful to be wrong. I know. To the point of the article, too, the computer worked to avoid exceeding Vne and probably started intervening after passing Vno, which are both figures given in KIAS because both rely on how thick the air is. (Everything in this comment applies to subsonic flight, and the entire calculus changes when you're >=Mach 1.)

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#43

not sure it's legit for airbus to be declaring a win for their automation. sounds like the copilot dogpaddled back to the cockpit through freefall and batted at his controls from the ceiling until the computer got confused and resumed level flight. If any safety technology deserves credit here it's seatbelts. From the sound of it, nobody who was belted in was injured.

The computer worked to prevent the aircraft from entering an overspeed condition by pitching up and attempting to recover from the dive even before that dual stick input was an issue. It was intervening 13 seconds into the incident, as the aircraft threatened to exceed safety tolerances. The dual stick input created another issue after that intervention began. The automation very possibly saved lives here. The oversp…

Nope, it wouldn't happen in a Boeing aircraft. This is a well-known Airbus defect that was a contributing factor to the crash of Air France Flight 447.

Boeing uses traditional controls. It's like a race car steering wheel on a big movable stick. It is really easy to see how the control is positioned.

Airbus uses a small joystick off to the side. It is force-based like a Thinkpad pointing stick, so it barely moves when you push on it. It isn't easy to see if the device is being pushed.

Here, a camera got jammed against the joystick. The pilot nearly made things worse by putting the aircraft in "direct law" mode because he couldn't tell that his own control was causing the problem. In the case of Air France Flight 447, the pilot's idiotic control input was not visible to the two other people in the cockpit.

Airbus will obviously brush this one under the carpet as well, because admitting that the side-stick control is hazardous would cause a need for drastic retrofit of all Airbus aircraft cockpits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447#Sidestic...

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#44
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally says "indicated air speed." There's no need for interpretation or assumption. If I saw a raw airspeed without and qualifier, I'd probably assume it meant indicated speed. But I fly small planes where that's the only airspeed available. If you want true airspeed, you have to take what's indicated and convert manually.

So it does. I still find this disunion of UOM disagreeable, in the way that "in thousandths, take 300 grams of acetaminophen twice daily" is troubling.

Why? Do you take issue to the fact that scales show you a measurement in kg rather than N despite it varying as you move around the world (and potentially with changes in temperature, depending on the type of scales)? Velocity/mass is far more intuitive than pressure/force even if they don't apply exactly the same in all cases.

It's about what works easiest for the users of the system.

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#45
post #23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speed of sound varies with altitude. Nevertheless, at 30,000 feet, Mach 1 is 1,091 km/h, so the original statement is not correct (mach 0.9 at 30,000 feet would be about 982 km/h).

My takeaway/learning is that "knots indicated airspeed" is a measure of pressure due to the aircraft mushing its way through the atmosphere, and is vaguely in proportion to actual_airspeed * altitude, and from my non-pilot's perspective ought to be expressed in bars or torr or something else meant for pressure and not velocity or distance.

The airplane flies based on how much of that mush is doing work on various parts of it, which means "I stay in the air" is a complex calculation of speed and pressure. Factoring in the slowly-decreasing density of that mush to those very important speeds saves calculation time, which is why pilots stick with indicated as the baseline. It's a known-wrong measurement with some valuable uses, and true airspeed and ground speed are usually available in the cockpit in real time. They're just not flown by.

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The computer worked to prevent the aircraft from entering an overspeed condition by pitching up and attempting to recover from the dive even before that dual stick input was an issue. It was intervening 13 seconds into the incident, as the aircraft threatened to exceed safety tolerances. The dual stick input created another issue after that intervention began. The automation very possibly saved lives here. The oversp…

Nope, it wouldn't happen in a Boeing aircraft. This is a well-known Airbus defect that was a contributing factor to the crash of Air France Flight 447. Boeing uses traditional controls. It's like a race car steering wheel on a big movable stick. It is really easy to see how the control is positioned. Airbus uses a small joystick off to the side. It is force-based like a Thinkpad pointing stick, so it barely moves whe…

This is the partisanship I'm talking about, for what it's worth.

I've flown an A320 in a full-size simulator and my experience with its sidestick, even in that simulator environment, does not match what you are describing. The sidestick moves quite far and quite noticeably[0], and does not behave like a ThinkPad. The aircraft simply ignores drastic input, which might be what you're thinking of with that assessment?

Anyway, I'd imagine if I were PIC of this flight and my aircraft suddenly pitched down 18 degrees, the sidestick would be the first thing I'd look at in about the first 750 milliseconds. Not sure why that didn't happen here, but I tend not to judge pilots from accident reports, so I have't put a lot of thought into it. I can't imagine a scenario where any camera could conceal itself in that arrangement, unless the A330 has huge voids under the stick that the A320 does not. Even stopping short of judging the PIC, I have a hard time imagining an outcome where this is an Airbus control flaw, no matter the (as one can see, passionate) opinions on sidestick.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zBsxJdI5JI

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#47
post #7

"seven dented ceiling panels, 50 damaged in-flight entertainment sockets" The article doesn't state it, but that's because the passengers, like the co-pilot, fell towards the ceiling of the airplane during this episode. Apparently, the headphone cables are stronger than those sockets.

There were only 25 passengers...

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#48
post #47
post #7

"seven dented ceiling panels, 50 damaged in-flight entertainment sockets" The article doesn't state it, but that's because the passengers, like the co-pilot, fell towards the ceiling of the airplane during this episode. Apparently, the headphone cables are stronger than those sockets.

There were only 25 passengers...

The article states there was 198 souls on board

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#49

not sure it's legit for airbus to be declaring a win for their automation. sounds like the copilot dogpaddled back to the cockpit through freefall and batted at his controls from the ceiling until the computer got confused and resumed level flight. If any safety technology deserves credit here it's seatbelts. From the sound of it, nobody who was belted in was injured.

Aren't the injuries trivial compared to the large risk of death? If seat belts are to be praised, it would be because they helped the pilot regain control, not for preventing some passenger bruising.

Re: A330 flight control laws saved Voyager, inquiry finds

#50
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is. Google "sidestick priority".

Thanks! That is reassuring to know. Shouldn't they have used it in this case when they knew an input was jammed? Obviously it worked out when the computer decided to ignore them, but just curious what the correct procedure should have been here.

> “With his feet on the flight deck roof, the co-pilot reached down and attempted to disengage the autopilot by pulling back on his sidestick,”

In this case I don't think they really knew that the issue was the jammed stick before the co-pilot pulling back on his stick gave the flight computer priority. It's hard to really say from the information given exactly when they discovered the camera was jammed and removed it vs when the plane was getting itself back under control.

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