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Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

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Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#171

Post by 21 »

om2 wrote: post #83
yellowapple wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're not complaining, we're explaining the lay of the land." The "lay of the land" is that the rest of the world is adopting Vulkan, and therefore the right target for WebGPU is very obviously Vulkan. Even macOS and iOS can (theoretically) support it thanks to MoltenVK [0], and Vulkan is already available on Windows. Trying to wrap all three "major" native APIs is pointless when there's already one that works every…

Vulkan on Windows is all based on unofficial drivers that don't come with Windows and aren't supported by MS. We don't think it's right to depend on this even if it's theoretically possible. Likewise for unofficial macOS/iOS drivers.

NVIDIA/AMD drivers with Vulkan support pass through WHQL, which is as official as a 3rd party driver can get.

So calling them unsupported/unofficial is quite a stretch.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#172

Post by dman »

om2 wrote: post #132
dman wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have your attention - what can be done to improve the state of Vulkan and OpenGL on the mac - its the single biggest reason for me to ragequit the OSX platform every time I try to give it a shot.

I think you'll want to talk to Apple Developer Relations and see if they can put you in touch with the teams responsible for the GPU-level stuff. We as the browser team can't do much with this feedback.

I will try do do this, though I remain sceptical that this will lead to anything. Not supporting external graphics APIs and Apple effectively controlling the drivers seems to be more of a business decision to me than a decision from a tech / dev relations team. Unless someone high up at Apple takes a call that supporting something like Vulkan / OpenGL is the path forward I doubt that this can be solved in a bottom up manner.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#173

Post by angry-hacker »

hota_mazi wrote: post #74
om2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not complaining, we're explaining the lay of the land. Working on top of all three of these APIs is totally doable and will result in a better API for the web. Things worth noting: - We believe other browser vendors agree with us that the web API should work on all three of the major native APIs. - The web has security requirements which force us to go a bit higher-level than Vulkan anyway. I understand your de…

> I understand your desire to have Vulkan on Apple platforms, but it's really a separate issue from the right target for WebGPU. No, it's not a separate issue. If Apple supported Vulcan, the simple act of proposing this new API as a standard would be laughed out of the room. We can only speculate why Apple won't support Vulcan but I'm going to go with "Prefer a solution they designed themselves over one designed by o…

While I agree with you, I doubt some random webkit engineer has any power saying what to support.

Apple never listens to anyone, probably some higher exec wants better lock in and that they design the standards. Everyone else keep their mouths shut.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#174

Post by 21 »

msie wrote: post #125

MS doesn't support Vulkan! Why are many people bashing Apple as the sole company not supporting it??? MS has abandoned OpenGL in support of D3D. Why have people forgotten this???

MS might have abandoned OpenGL, but you can use the latest OpenGL version on Windows if you have an NVIDIA/AMD/Intel GPU and driver, unlike on macOS (4.1 on macOS vs 4.5 on Windows)

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#175

Post by AsyncAwait »

zbuttram wrote: post #154
hota_mazi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand your desire to have Vulkan on Apple platforms, but it's really a separate issue from the right target for WebGPU. No, it's not a separate issue. If Apple supported Vulcan, the simple act of proposing this new API as a standard would be laughed out of the room. We can only speculate why Apple won't support Vulcan but I'm going to go with "Prefer a solution they designed themselves over one designed by o…

What people seem to be missing here is that based on available info it seems Microsoft isn't officially supporting Vulkan either. Sure Nvidia and AMD have released drivers for Windows that have Vulkan support, but we're talking about a web standard that would need to be implemented by browser makers and if Microsoft isn't going to use Vulkan, then what do they implement as the backing for this new standard in Edge? P…

Why are they so hostile to Vulkan and what problems does Vulkan, which is vendor independent and open, have that adding a new API to support to the pile would not?

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#176

Post by AsyncAwait »

om2 wrote: post #41
NickGerleman wrote: post #9

"The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Metal from Apple, and Vulkan from the Khronos Group. While these technologies have similar design concepts, unfortunately none are available across all platforms." So Apple, the only company not supporting Vulkan on their platforms, is complaining that there isn't a cross-platform solution?

We're not complaining, we're explaining the lay of the land. Working on top of all three of these APIs is totally doable and will result in a better API for the web. Things worth noting: - We believe other browser vendors agree with us that the web API should work on all three of the major native APIs. - The web has security requirements which force us to go a bit higher-level than Vulkan anyway. I understand your de…

Are you familiar with https://xkcd.com/927 ?

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#177

Post by dman »

msie wrote: post #125

MS doesn't support Vulkan! Why are many people bashing Apple as the sole company not supporting it??? MS has abandoned OpenGL in support of D3D. Why have people forgotten this???

Because unlike OSX it is possible for end users to upgrade the supported graphics API without the OS vendor having a say. Its the exact reason why games on Windows have such a vibrant ecosystem.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#178

Post by mrpippy »

guardiangod wrote: post #160
sydd wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and the next sentence goes "However, there are well defined mechanisms by which IHVs can ship a Vulkan driver on any version of Windows. But it will be as it is the case now with OpenGL. That is, it is up to the application to negotiate with the implementation to install an appropriate Vulkan driver for the hardware that is on the machine." Also "Vulkan is available on all versions of Windows that are on DirectX 12,…

Someone else mentioned that they don't care about Nvidia and AMD both advocating for Vulkan because I'm personally not interested in the big desktop PCs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulkan_(API)#Compatibility In addition to Nvidia and AMD, Intel, Imagination Technologies, Qualcomm (!!!), and ARM support Vulkan. Hardware wise, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever.

Intel has only released beta/test drivers for Windows, and this was their statement as of August:

The current Plan Of Record is that Intel® is not supporting Vulkan on Windows drivers. The drivers that were made available on Developer.com are intended for Vulkan developers.

So, it is expected that some Vulkan drivers may not work for end users.

Intel GPUs power at least 50% of Windows PCs, and I'd guess the number is closer to 70%. Unless this situation changes, Vulkan is not the single cross-platform answer.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#179

Post by [deleted] »

guardiangod wrote: post #160
sydd wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and the next sentence goes "However, there are well defined mechanisms by which IHVs can ship a Vulkan driver on any version of Windows. But it will be as it is the case now with OpenGL. That is, it is up to the application to negotiate with the implementation to install an appropriate Vulkan driver for the hardware that is on the machine." Also "Vulkan is available on all versions of Windows that are on DirectX 12,…

Someone else mentioned that they don't care about Nvidia and AMD both advocating for Vulkan because I'm personally not interested in the big desktop PCs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulkan_(API)#Compatibility In addition to Nvidia and AMD, Intel, Imagination Technologies, Qualcomm (!!!), and ARM support Vulkan. Hardware wise, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever.

[deleted]
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