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Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

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Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing? Facebook is not a passport, you can be called whoever you want on it.

I get the point you're making, but highlighting the original point, Facebook terms explicitly say you _can't_ do that. "You will not provide any false personal information on Facebook, or create an account for anyone other than yourself without permission."

The problem I see is what is facebook out. You still watch the ads.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#22
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing? Facebook is not a passport, you can be called whoever you want on it.

If you have a false facebook account, you broke facebooks ToS! That means you accessed facebooks servers without authentication!! That is a crime under e.g. the CFAA!!! Criminals go to jail. That is the argument at least.

how do you prove that i have a fake facebook account? obviously i would have to log-out on my mobile and laptop

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great perspective. Breach of contract would be the upper bound. I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either because it is unreasonable in today's society to assume checking that box in a sign-up process is actually giving informed consent to the terms for the wast majority of people. But even if it was, worst case it's a breach of contract.

I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either So how to deal with abusive users then? Hand wave and say it is okay to block them for certain actions that are not terms of service? And of course arbitrary terms of service already can't be enforced.

[deleted]

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great perspective. Breach of contract would be the upper bound. I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either because it is unreasonable in today's society to assume checking that box in a sign-up process is actually giving informed consent to the terms for the wast majority of people. But even if it was, worst case it's a breach of contract.

I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either So how to deal with abusive users then? Hand wave and say it is okay to block them for certain actions that are not terms of service? And of course arbitrary terms of service already can't be enforced.

If you mean "abusive" as in "violates the terms of service," then revoking access to the service is the appropriate response.

If you mean "abusive" as in hate crime, bullying, stalking and so forth, there are already specific laws covering those things.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either So how to deal with abusive users then? Hand wave and say it is okay to block them for certain actions that are not terms of service? And of course arbitrary terms of service already can't be enforced.

If you mean "abusive" as in "violates the terms of service," then revoking access to the service is the appropriate response. If you mean "abusive" as in hate crime, bullying, stalking and so forth, there are already specific laws covering those things.

Exactly, that's also the most reasonable interpretation of the designation too. 'Terms of Service' literally -> the terms you need to agree with for us to provide you the service. No agreement or no adherence -> no service.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#26
post #22
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a false facebook account, you broke facebooks ToS! That means you accessed facebooks servers without authentication!! That is a crime under e.g. the CFAA!!! Criminals go to jail. That is the argument at least.

how do you prove that i have a fake facebook account? obviously i would have to log-out on my mobile and laptop

If you don't have identification that matches the name of your Facebook account.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#27
Going forward we should all have our minor children create accounts for us and be the ones to accept the TOS.

Once you realize that is a reasonable workflow you've realized how unenforceable TOS are for everything but corporate contracts where documents are being signed and witnessed.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#28
post #27

Going forward we should all have our minor children create accounts for us and be the ones to accept the TOS. Once you realize that is a reasonable workflow you've realized how unenforceable TOS are for everything but corporate contracts where documents are being signed and witnessed.

Something like this worked out in my favor maybe 10 years ago. ChaCha (the search and get live answers site) was just started and wanting some extra pocket money I signed up to be an operator. I was probably 15 at the time, of course I just clicked 'yes I am 18' and ended up being accepted.

Well I found a few flaws in their system and started racking up money way faster than should have been allowed. After a few days of this and hundreds in my account I got a phone call during dinner. It was ChaCha, threatening to sue me for 'hacking them'. The 180 they pulled when I casually mentioned I was only 15 was amazing to witness. They completely dropped the matter on a verbal agreement that I would not visit their site anymore.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing? Facebook is not a passport, you can be called whoever you want on it.

If you have a false facebook account, you broke facebooks ToS! That means you accessed facebooks servers without authentication!! That is a crime under e.g. the CFAA!!! Criminals go to jail. That is the argument at least.

Ah okay, I did not get that, it's quite an extreme view... The best they should be able to do legally is close your account, nothing more.

Re: Violating Terms of Use Isn’t a Crime, EFF Tells Court

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great perspective. Breach of contract would be the upper bound. I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either because it is unreasonable in today's society to assume checking that box in a sign-up process is actually giving informed consent to the terms for the wast majority of people. But even if it was, worst case it's a breach of contract.

I don't think ToS should be able to be enforced either So how to deal with abusive users then? Hand wave and say it is okay to block them for certain actions that are not terms of service? And of course arbitrary terms of service already can't be enforced.

If you want a user to agree to something, you ask them if they agree to it and below that have two radio buttons labeled "Yes, I agree", or "No, I don't agree". Neither of them should be selected by default. You do this for every term you want them to agree to, not some general "Do you agree to these terms of service".

As long as you don't build this in a way that encourages people to mindlessly go through the list and click yes on all of them, I'd currently consider this, and nothing less, sufficient for informed consent.

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