Live data from Hacker News

What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

ftc.gov

221–230 of 340 posts

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#221
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, did anyone on your team raise any ethical concerns in regards to the potential privacy violation? If not, how was the topic handled by employees/management?

If we expect employees speaking up to fix this, we are going to live in constant disappointment. The pro-privacy people live in a very small, but loud, echo chamber. We need to be proactive with developing pro-privacy technologies if we expect something to be done about this. The majority of the population and the majority of developers seem to not care at all about intimately targeted ads.

It's not just apathy, it's also because there's often so much you can do without pissing off the management or generally looking like a "bad culture fit". And then they'll get someone else to do it anyway.

At my current job, I don't have any privacy-related issues, but I have to handle occasional clueless ideas from the customer. It usually goes like this:

  They: We want to have this security-related change X.
  Me:   Uh ok... but are you sure it's a good idea? What's your threat model?
  They: ???
  Me:   You see, this change will make it more difficult for user to do Y, with no real
        benefit to security, because A, B and C.
  They: Uh... yes, you're right; let's not do it then.
Fast-forward one or two other attempts at proposing the same change and half a year later, I find the change implemented in the codebase anyway. Turns out some other manager on customer's side asked someone else in my company to implement it.

-.-

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#222
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not much technical knowledge required. Basic parental control on my ASUS router denies access to the internet to Samsung TV and it can still play content from LAN via UPnP.

In order to roughly scale how much technical knowledge this actually represents, remember that most humans, even most humans with home networks, do not know what routers and networks are .

For a much better sense of scale, it's important to remember that ~14% of adults in the US are illiterate[1].

This is why the medical community adopted the principle of requiring informed consent[2]. a much higher standard than "it was in the ToS" or "our business model assumes you weren't lucky enough to have the education necessary to understand why it is important to opt-out". Similar requirements need to be applied to data; if you aren't proactively informing users about precisely what will happen with their data, and making sure they understand, the user isn't making a properly informed decision.

Pretending people will understand the consequences of data collection (with modern analysis methods) when there is a decent chance they can't even read the ToS/etc is what you tell yourself to alleviate conative dissonance.

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp#2

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#223
post #54

If nobody's started one yet, I think there would be an audience for a blog/vlog/whatever that reviews non-smart TVs. And/or a place that evaluates which "smart" TVs function acceptably as "dumb" when they are not connected to a network. Realistically, this would have to include evaluating things beside consumer TVs for use as living room devices, since "smart" features in consumer TVs are nearly unavoidable at this p…

Rather than avoiding such TVs, I think we're better off taking some good precautionary measures. Why buy commercial displays which usually are pretty expensive, when you can buy consumer ones and be smart about how you use it? Of course, even if they start coming with in-built wifi, just don't let them connect to anything. First, off taking control of your own home network is crucial. Get a good router, something you…

> Prevent external network access to all the devices

You're assuming that is possible. Some system-on-a-chips have started including an integrated LTE modem.

(e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos#List_of_ARMv8_Exynos_So... )

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#225

What I'm about to say may go against what many of the HN community believes. This isn't an attack on anyone's beliefs; I'm merely expressing my thoughts in an attempt to solicit constructive discourse. I'mma be honest. I don't understand the repulsion at the possibility of corporation X knowing my personal info, (excluding the usual things like bank account info, SSNs, etc) like my location, search history, etc. To b…

Let me shoot a few holes in your reasoning.

> Corporations ... Don't [Have the power to arrest and detain on a whim. Not to mention, use drone strikes.]

... yet. In western countries. It's not unheard of in history for corporations to have armies.

That said, the primary issue today is that once data is collected, a government entity can subpoena for it, essentially turning the thing into a user->corp->govt data pipeline. In cases where you'd be worried about serious government abuse of data, the corporate databanks are not safe from it either.

Secondly, some companies do have a way of ruining your life. Think banks and insurance companies, for example.

> [Corporations] have self-interested incentives to provide tools which are economically productive for users. For example, a smarter smartphone, whatever that may be.

No, they don't. That's the naive story you may hear about market economics in primary school. The truth is, these entities have self-interest incentives to make you pay them for shit. It doesn't matter if it's economically productive for you, or if it's economically destructive. Think cigarettes, addictive entertainment, crappy products that break quick, planned obsolescence, various marketing shenanigans they pull with telemarketers, etc. Companies make useful products only when, and only to the extent, that they sell better than useless products.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixes and improvements.

Remember when products worked out of the box?

This.

I'm conflicted about updates. On the one hand, people screaming "but security!!111~1" have some pretty good points - especially when talking about internet-connected devices. On the other hand, shit used to work out of the box in the past, and most updates that are not security patches seem to only introduce useless crap and bloat software more.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#228

It's not worth buying any of these 'Smart' TVs. I don't know whether it is a shoddy developer experience provided by the likes of Samsung / Vizeo etc or if it's the developers themselves (Hulu I'm looking at you) who do not maintain their apps which are constantly bug filled. I much prefer my old dumb TV that has a Roku plugged into it. Oh yeah, and I know it's not WATCHING ME.

The smart features mostly suck, but the idea of using two remotes (or a nonstandard programmable remote) is pretty unattractive. I jump through a lot of hoops to be able to plug my tv antenna cable into my tv rather than a set top box of some kind, so it would defeat the point to have a set top box for the smart features. I suppose if the streaming services I use were all compatible with e.g. ChromeCast I could use t…

Many TVs allow hdmi pass through of the TV remote to a device if it's supported. For example my Samsung remote can control my FireTV via HDMI.

In the past, Sony has picked confusing button mappings for the PS3 such that only Sony remotes worked well with it, but I haven't had a Sony device since then.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#229
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks and noted. If I ever end up getting a SmartTV (due to dumb TV's no longer being sold), it's never getting on my network and going to be banned at the mac address level.

It needs to be physically disconnected or on a network without Internet connection. The Mac address is the easiest to spoof. If it has any kind of radio like WiFi you need to de-solder it, as the data could be collected by a car driving by, or via your neighborers Wifi.

> as the data could be collected by a car driving by, or via your neighborers Wifi.

What?

How is it going to connect to your neighbours wifi? How is someone driving past going to connect to your TV? Is the TV going to set itself up as an access point?

I'm completely behind not connecting random devices in my house to the internet but suggesting they are somehow trying to get data out by connecting to random networks or will just broadcast it for anyone to hear is a bit much.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#230
post #223
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than avoiding such TVs, I think we're better off taking some good precautionary measures. Why buy commercial displays which usually are pretty expensive, when you can buy consumer ones and be smart about how you use it? Of course, even if they start coming with in-built wifi, just don't let them connect to anything. First, off taking control of your own home network is crucial. Get a good router, something you…

> Prevent external network access to all the devices You're assuming that is possible . Some system-on-a-chips have started including an integrated LTE modem. (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos#List_of_ARMv8_Exynos_So... )

Who's paying for the data, though?
Post reply on HN