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What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

ftc.gov

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Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#51

Post by ams6110 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #42

If nobody's started one yet, I think there would be an audience for a blog/vlog/whatever that reviews non-smart TVs. And/or a place that evaluates which "smart" TVs function acceptably as "dumb" when they are not connected to a network. Realistically, this would have to include evaluating things beside consumer TVs for use as living room devices, since "smart" features in consumer TVs are nearly unavoidable at this p…

I think it's not just TVs. Any internet-connected home devices have to be viewed with suspicion until proven to be good household citizens.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#52

Post by yincrash »

caconym_ wrote: post #34
modoc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see DNS issues with SmartHub, etc.. but I don't see anyone suggesting that Samsung is capturing image data and sending it back? Not saying they aren't, but as an owner of two Samsung TVs, I'd be interested in any real evidence of them doing this type of thing..

This happened a while ago: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/19/samsung-s...

However, as far as anyone has shown, that audio data is only when the user uses the voice functionality on the TV. They just were bad about encryption, but to use voice search, it made sense that they were sent data. That is remarkably different than recording image data every second from every television and sending that back.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#53

Post by radiorental »

JohnBooty wrote: post #42

If nobody's started one yet, I think there would be an audience for a blog/vlog/whatever that reviews non-smart TVs. And/or a place that evaluates which "smart" TVs function acceptably as "dumb" when they are not connected to a network. Realistically, this would have to include evaluating things beside consumer TVs for use as living room devices, since "smart" features in consumer TVs are nearly unavoidable at this p…

There was a similar thread here on HN a month or two ago with a comment about swapping out the 'smart' logic board for a generic 'dumb' board.

Doesn't work for all boards but it makes sense that for some makes and models, the screen is relatively generic and can be driven by something you can buy off of ebay.

That or source an industrial display

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#54

Post by ktta »

JohnBooty wrote: post #42

If nobody's started one yet, I think there would be an audience for a blog/vlog/whatever that reviews non-smart TVs. And/or a place that evaluates which "smart" TVs function acceptably as "dumb" when they are not connected to a network. Realistically, this would have to include evaluating things beside consumer TVs for use as living room devices, since "smart" features in consumer TVs are nearly unavoidable at this p…

Rather than avoiding such TVs, I think we're better off taking some good precautionary measures.

Why buy commercial displays which usually are pretty expensive, when you can buy consumer ones and be smart about how you use it? Of course, even if they start coming with in-built wifi, just don't let them connect to anything.

First, off taking control of your own home network is crucial. Get a good router, something you can install pfSense or linux on. You'll basically have to get an NUC and learn how to manage firewalls. I suggest pfSense or just plain jane ubuntu server if you aren't very good with these systems. Then, a wifi access point can be connected to it for your wireless devices.

Prevent external network access to all the devices, and then whitelisting them (probably only your computers) is the way to go. Unless you bother to teach every one who lives in your house about the terrible things that some companies do, just block everything.

I don't think we can prevent IoT just like we couldn't stop phones. Home automation can be the best thing since mobile phone. As nuts as it sounds, you might just realize the comfort factor of having a "smart home". Just have to be careful, just like you're careful with your phones, and what they do. Read up on basic security, common exploits targeting IoT devices, etc.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#55

Post by AJ007 »

mikeryan wrote: post #33

So I have a bit of intimate knowledge of this. Not sure what I can answer but for years my company worked on an Automatic Content Recognition project using tools from a team called Cognitive Networks who were bought by Vizio and makes up the tech that did this. If I understand correctly the founder of Vizio kept this tech for himself in the sale of Vizio. When developing this we would work directly with Cognitive che…

Thanks for posting this. When I saw the original FTC story I recalled reading about this once or twice in the past but couldn't think of any key phrases or sources.

In response to some of the other comments here, basically what they are guilty of isn't spying but failing to properly disclose and opt-in users. There is a particular major AV vendor who is selling raw clickstream data of millions of their user's internet usage directly to marketers and other parties right now. As far as I can tell, as long as it is buried somewhere in the terms and conditions no one cares.

Of course, other companies that are actually serving the content are doing far more than just passively monitoring your viewing habits.

From my best guess, Facebook is logging every signal it can from content/pictures/videos it displays to users. Even if you didn't click like, comment, or click through the link it knows the story captured your attention.

I had an interesting case with Instagram where after viewing enough pictures of women's butts it started also showing men's bare butts in my feed too.. at least until I never opened any of them, and they disappeared.

Users should consider that content providers are going to have extremely deep data sets of even the most minute dimensions of their political leanings, porn viewing habits, dating preferences, and gullibilities. All of this will make what TV shows you watched between Netflix and NBC beyond mundane.

With an open web, where we get content from the source, this shouldn't actually be possible. Thank the platform business model.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#56

Post by [deleted] »

mikeryan wrote: post #33

So I have a bit of intimate knowledge of this. Not sure what I can answer but for years my company worked on an Automatic Content Recognition project using tools from a team called Cognitive Networks who were bought by Vizio and makes up the tech that did this. If I understand correctly the founder of Vizio kept this tech for himself in the sale of Vizio. When developing this we would work directly with Cognitive che…

[deleted]

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#57

Post by abandonliberty »

Smerity wrote: post #11
abandonliberty wrote: post #8

This is promising and is a good start towards IOT precedent, and perhaps even operating systems of our devices (Windows 10). - Explain your data collection practices up front. - Get consumers’ consent before you collect and share highly specific information about their entertainment preferences. - Make it easy for consumers to exercise options. - Established consumer protection principles apply to new technology. I w…

To note, they were also forced to delete the collected data, though the insights they've already extracted / profits from data they've already sold may offset both the point and the $2.2 million fine.

You're right, good insight.

I was thinking purely about risk/reward for other players in the market. The fine is 0.4% of the Note 7 recall cost, not including brand damage.

A fine this nominal could easily be seen as the cost of doing business - if you get caught.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#58

Post by kelnos »

tracker1 wrote: post #48
JohnBooty wrote: post #42

If nobody's started one yet, I think there would be an audience for a blog/vlog/whatever that reviews non-smart TVs. And/or a place that evaluates which "smart" TVs function acceptably as "dumb" when they are not connected to a network. Realistically, this would have to include evaluating things beside consumer TVs for use as living room devices, since "smart" features in consumer TVs are nearly unavoidable at this p…

Personally, I'd be pretty happy with very high quality monitor-only sets... I mostly run everything through my AVR anyways. Though some of the smart tv options are getting compelling, I tend to find the integrated devices are always a letdown after a couple years.

Yeah, same: I expect a TV to last a decade or more, but I expect a smart TV features to become out of date about as quickly as most smartphones do. And I never expect drastic updates for those sorts of things; the TV company's revenue stream depends on you buying a new TV more frequently than I'd plan to.

I think a separate device like a ChromeCast or Apple TV is a much better choice.

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#59

Post by kelnos »

xanderstrike wrote: post #44
kevin_b_er wrote: post #25

This is why you do not use a smart TV: Nefarious data collection on what you watch and Samsungs are known to demand to show ads or else. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13585132 https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/241500-samsung-smart... http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190222/20161227/samsung-sm... I'm also, for political reasons, suspicious of the FTC's willingness to pursue such cases in the future.

Can you recommend a 50" 1080p tv that isn't "smart"? I've been shopping for a new one and I strongly suspect they don't exist.

Do they work okay (sans "smart" features) if you just decline to connect them to a network?

Re: What Vizio was doing behind the TV screen

#60

Post by richardwhiuk »

ktta wrote: post #54
JohnBooty wrote: post #42

If nobody's started one yet, I think there would be an audience for a blog/vlog/whatever that reviews non-smart TVs. And/or a place that evaluates which "smart" TVs function acceptably as "dumb" when they are not connected to a network. Realistically, this would have to include evaluating things beside consumer TVs for use as living room devices, since "smart" features in consumer TVs are nearly unavoidable at this p…

Rather than avoiding such TVs, I think we're better off taking some good precautionary measures. Why buy commercial displays which usually are pretty expensive, when you can buy consumer ones and be smart about how you use it? Of course, even if they start coming with in-built wifi, just don't let them connect to anything. First, off taking control of your own home network is crucial. Get a good router, something you…

There's an absurd amount of technical knowledge that you are suggesting that every household in America should subscriber to.

Also, if you have a SmartTV, you probably need to allow it contact the internet, otherwise playing internet TV (Netflix, iPlayer, Hulu, etc) is not going to work. If it can access Netflix, it can probably phone home with your data.

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