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Why do you use Firefox?

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Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#71
Personally, I disliked the fact that Chrome would spawn so many processes. This has become less of an issue (as each process is no longer as heavy), but was a big deal previously as other people at work would constantly complain about their computers being slow.

Call me old school, but I actually like the fact that the URL bar and the search bar are two separate things and that I can actually have a menu bar. I find the way that Chrome handles its navigation a little annoying at time and I don't see a big deal about losing a few hundred pixels to FF's chrome.

I actually like the way that Mozilla communicates information about Firefox (less automated).

Aside from that, unabashed fanboyism.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#72

Chrome feels invasive to me. It's always wanting me to sign in to my Google accounts and sync everything. Why would I want to sign in to a browser? It wants to run extensions as background processes (wtf?). Why would I want my browser to run "apps"? It's like it wants to be an OS wrapped in an OS. Why wouldn't I just use my OS? At this point, it just feels like bloat to me. I want a browser. That's all. I guess I use…

I use Chrome apps for long-running things that are actually like apps. Gmail and Hangouts for example. It's nice to have a separate icon for them too. But I still do all my regular browsing in Firefox.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#73

> only about 38% of Firefox users have an extension What? You can't describe 38% of your user base with the word "only". This should read "a whole 38% of Firefox users ..." I use Firefox because I trust it better than chrome, but I need those extensions I am using.

Yep. If you make a change that upsets nearly 40% of your userbase, can you really act surprised when you hear people complain about it? Even if you go with the comparatively tiny 5% estimate of users who are 'unable' to switch, that's still a number that's in the millions.

This is the sort of thing that Google does all the time - optimize for the 90% at the expense of the remaining 10%. I think a lot of the more extreme backlash is because of that vocal (but not insignificant!) minority which is disappointed by the perception that Mozilla is going down the same route as Google (and all the other tech behemoths before them).

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#74
I use Firefox because it works fine and doesn't appear to be trying to exploit me.

I don't know what "WebExtensions" are or how they differ from regular extensions, but if Firefox breaks all the adblockers and scriptblockers that I depend on to make the web tolerable, I'm going to have to downgrade that "works fine" rating.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#75
Chrome is all about delivering web content to the user, as the web page developer designed it. Firefox moves the balance of power closer to the user. And not just with extensions, but by building in Readability mode and letting users pick fonts, sizes, colors etc. Even though Firefox is going to move away from their old addon model, they are constantly pushing to standardize more functionality in the new model. They really want users to experience the web on their own terms, even when that means putting a lot of extra work into the core framework of the browser.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#77

I use Firefox because it works fine and doesn't appear to be trying to exploit me. I don't know what "WebExtensions" are or how they differ from regular extensions, but if Firefox breaks all the adblockers and scriptblockers that I depend on to make the web tolerable, I'm going to have to downgrade that "works fine" rating.

WebExtensions are going to look a lot like Chrome's extensions, to the point that many addons will be compatible between the two. So, speaking loosely, anything Chrome addons can do now will be supported.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#78
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why are they stopping with that mentality? Because, in practice, officially giving unfettered access to Firefox's internals to third-party developers makes changing anything in the Firefox codebase a potential quagmire. It's taken five or six years for electrolysis to begin seeing the light of day, and that's because such a drastic rearchitecture of the browser ended up breaking basically every popular addon in the…

That was well said. But at the end of the day doesn't it remain an argument that users shouldn't be able to run the extensions that have been freely available, aka "we know better than you." Breaking Firefox to turn it into the browser they wished they had made will be disastrous, I'm afraid. It seems to me there are any number of "middle paths" (or dual paths) that Mozilla could take, but they don't want to do anyth…

> But at the end of the day doesn't it remain an argument that users shouldn't be able to run the extensions that have been freely available

I'm unsure what you're arguing here. Their goal is not to abandon addons for the sake of abandoning addons. On the contrary, Mozilla has been sweating blood for years to strike a balance between 1) making the vast architectural changes that will keep them competitive with other browsers and 2) keeping as few addons as possible from breaking with each release. And rarely do they ever get kudos for their efforts in keeping up this balancing act--instead they just get panned both for not being as fast as Chrome and then breaking some subset of addons anyway. So we've at last reached a breaking point: between electrolysis and project quantum, Mozilla is at last forced to choose between being a slow browser with powerful addons or being a fast browser with limited addons. I'm sure there are plenty of folks on HN who will wish they had taken the former path rather than the latter, but the problem is that Mozilla's mission of influencing web standards depends on having sufficient market share to afford a seat at the standards table, and I happen to agree with Mozilla that there are more people out there who want a fast and secure browser than who want an extensible browser (and I say that as someone who's been using Firefox with addons since version 1). (And for all that the point might still be moot: maybe Chrome with its marketing momentum and Safari and Edge with their platform advantage really are unassailable regardless of which path is taken here.)

In any case, as unhelpful as it may sound, the idea that users won't be able to "run the extensions that have been freely available" is false. Old versions of Firefox will always exist, and every component is thoroughly open source, so if a community (or company) sees a demand for a fork of Firefox with legacy addons support then the opportunity is ripe.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#79
post #21

No processes. No hangouts. No index service started without asking. Chrome on Windows is a pig. Back when I was using it then nonstop then 25% of CPU usage was pegged to Chrome. I gave up trying to manage Chrome and switched to Firefox. Recently Firefox said they were moving away from threads to processes. I think that's a mistake. Killing Chrome was a pain at times because when it does hang all the child processes h…

> Recently Firefox said they were moving away from threads to processes. I think that's a mistake. Killing Chrome was a pain at times because when it does hang all the child processes had to be killed independently. It was possible to restart Chrome with orphaned processes. What a mess.

Your argument against a multi-process architecture is you once encountered a process-reaping bug in chrome. Can't even.

> I refuse to use Chrome because it has crappy performance and usability.

I worked as a platform engineer at Mozilla for several years. I heard so many unfounded opinions about 's consumption that ran contrary to every benchmark and defied every attempt to extract statistics from the user that you'd think I would be numb to it. But I still get chills.

The advice was always the same though. "Does this occur if you open a fresh profile without your 900 tabs or 50 addons?" -- "If I'm going to do that I might as well switch to Chrome!" -- Well, I mean, okay.

> Chrome developers are crap developers and they hide behind processes because they don't have the chops to do threads. I hate to see Firefox move in that direction. Maybe Firefox needs to since Firefox is adopting Chrome extensions. But I refuse to use Chrome because it has crappy performance and usability. Hopefully Firefox doesn't move in the same direction.

This is insulting to a lot of very smart people who spent an enormous amount of time working on these engines. You can't just infer two traits about random software, attribute it to the biggest technical difference you can see, and then state that as fact. A multi-process architecture is much more difficult to get right than a multi-threaded one, and every single modern browser is pursuing it because it is worthwhile on numerous axis. Citing nothing but a vague luddite sentiment, you assert the hundreds of engineers who have spent years working on chrome don't "have the chops" to "do threads". Wat.

Re: Why do you use Firefox?

#80

NoScript and uBlock Origin, both running at once, for an almost completely ad-free Web.

Is this not available under Chrome for some reason? Or was it not available when you made your switch (or original browser choice)?

NoScript is mentioned in the article as not being available on Chrome, and I've heard that Chrome ad-blockers still show ads. Google being an ad company, I wouldn't expect them to allow particularly thorough ad-blocking.
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