Live data from Hacker News

Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

eff.org

11–20 of 70 posts

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#11
>ruling that private organizations can use copyright to control access to huge portions of our state and federal laws.

Then if I decide not to use their copyright, the onus is on the copyholder to file suit against me for violation.

If in fact a firm owns it, the government cannot pursue a case, and the firm (with no criminal jurisdiction) cannot impose any penalty.

If in fact the government owns the text, it must necessarily be made freely available, unless it pertains to national security (which is shaky justification at best).

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#12
Even if the companies that wrote these laws get to retain copyright, surely the substantial public interest in making them freely available makes this Fair Use. But current Copyright law is a cancer on our economy. Why not the government, too?

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#13
post #10

I can see troubling consequences that arise from both sides' arguments. If private companies can hold copyrights on portions of the law, that inhibits access to those laws, and I think any reasonable person would agree that citizens have a basic right to access the text of laws and legally binding regulations, and paywalls or other restrictions conflict with that right. But if the government can essentially revoke a…

Copyright isn't a right. Unlike actual rights it can be nullified by legislation, without recourse.

Those nonprofits you mention operate just fine without holding copyright in many cases.

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#15
post #10

I can see troubling consequences that arise from both sides' arguments. If private companies can hold copyrights on portions of the law, that inhibits access to those laws, and I think any reasonable person would agree that citizens have a basic right to access the text of laws and legally binding regulations, and paywalls or other restrictions conflict with that right. But if the government can essentially revoke a…

The only reason why copyright exists is for the benefit of society.

If copyright is ever used to the detriment of society, an adjustment is in order.

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#16
post #10

I can see troubling consequences that arise from both sides' arguments. If private companies can hold copyrights on portions of the law, that inhibits access to those laws, and I think any reasonable person would agree that citizens have a basic right to access the text of laws and legally binding regulations, and paywalls or other restrictions conflict with that right. But if the government can essentially revoke a…

>But if the government can essentially revoke a private individual or company's copyright merely by incorporating otherwise protected text into legislation, that can have adverse effects on copyright holders.

I don't know if this is actually being proposed as a possible solution. It might be enough to prevent governments from doing the reference in the first place. Then it would be up to the government to negotiate public access to to any standards they wanted to make law.

There is a commonly used approximation used to compensate for the change in density of various retail petroleum products with temperature. In my country we have a law covering how such compensation is to be done at the retail level. That law is a reference to a standard behind a pay and weirdness wall. In Belgium they have the same sort of law, but the actual function is right there in the law, in standard mathematical notation.

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#17

I don't get the criticism against the judge or the ruling. Frankly, the arguments presented by Resource.org seem to be unpersuasive (the claim that these standards are "discovered facts" is just insulting to the engineers that worked on them) and completely unsupported by the law. It's not the judge's fault that your Congress and other governments have sold you out. Go sue them for enforcing laws you can't read.

Standards shouldn't be copyrightable. Or they're not standards, they're just secret handshakes (or whatevers, after all you can't really talk about parts of it, because all of it is just dry quantitative stuff - yet not simple facts to share) that allegedly work.

Also, does ISO pay the C++ standards developers? And how much is the market for C++ standards? (Yes, compiler vendors are usually big firms/organizations, but I doubt all the money paid for the standards so far would be enough to cover all the expenses of the various working group meetings involved.)

And sure, the tools of the trade argument is valid, you don't get hammers for free if you want to build a house (or just fix up something), but we can make the mental categorical distinction between information that gains value as more and more people has access vs information that loses value as more and more people has access (trade secrets, hence the licensing cost of patents).

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#18
post #4

Copyright law needs some serious reform. It's unconscionable that you can't even share the laws that govern you. We really need an exception for things that are considered "public" knowledge, including freedom of panorama. (I can't even take a picture of my own city if it contains an artwork in it) We also need to do something about orphaned works. Sadly, it's in the interest of Disney and other corporations that the…

There's no need for a copyright exception, people crafting public laws should simply not incorporate material that cannot be published along with the law.

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#19

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse". "Oh, you want to see the law? That'll cost you."

Came here for this angle.

The extreme abuse of that rule would be to bump the price to $1T and thus create secret laws. Without review by the People and their representatives, it's not a democracy.

Re: Federal Court Says Public Safety Laws Can Be Locked Behind Paywalls

#20

I don't get the criticism against the judge or the ruling. Frankly, the arguments presented by Resource.org seem to be unpersuasive (the claim that these standards are "discovered facts" is just insulting to the engineers that worked on them) and completely unsupported by the law. It's not the judge's fault that your Congress and other governments have sold you out. Go sue them for enforcing laws you can't read.

"I don't get the criticism against the judge or the ruling."

It's actually directly contrary to rulings in other states, circuits, etc.

Even the supreme court has held, consistently, since 1888, that the law is free.

'the authentic exposition and interpretation of the law, which, binding every citizen, is free for publication to all, whether it is a declaration of unwritten law, or an interpretation of a constitution or a statute' Banks v. Manchester (128 U.S. 244, 1888)

I don't think this could be more clear.

An argument that you get to lock it away by incorporating by reference is patently absurd and directly contrary to this.

You don't get to say

"page one of georgia annotated code:

for the text of pages 1-100000 of the georgia code, please see 'the real georgia annotated code', published by forprofitco,"

But that's just what is happening, since these standards are not "voluntary", but binding law that you can be charged with crimes or sued for violating.

If they wanted to charge money, they have a simple solution - don't make them law, don't charge people for violations, etc.

" Frankly, the arguments presented by Resource.org seem to be unpersuasive (the claim that these standards are "discovered facts" is just insulting to the engineers that worked on them) and completely unsupported by the law."

Except they (and others) have repeatedly won in pretty much every other case. This is in fact, the first case i'm aware of that they've lost (or that others have lost in similar situations).

Frankly, the idea that you can sue people or charge them with a crime, for a law they have to pay to read is insulting to everyone, and very clearly not constitutional.

As mentioned, there is a simple solution - if you want to charge, don't give them binding force of law. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

Post reply on HN