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Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#91

Post by el_isma »

mixedCase wrote: post #27

I despise the bullyish behavior of most unions, in fact, the central organization that coordinates them in my country has often been called our "shadow government" due to how they blackmail the state on every issue to take advantage and force them to be wasteful with tax dollars, causing far more damage than what they undo. I am just a single person, but I wouldn't be caught dead in an union just from what I've seen…

Sounds like my country...

It leaves me wondering if it's the same country or it's the same issue

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#92

Post by gigatexal »

quinequine wrote: post #90
gigatexal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not teaching more people engineering is a good thing? Are you really advocating ignorance to artificially constrain the supply in the market of competent engineers? Non-competes, no-poaching, etc and illegal acts to constrain salaries are deplorable, yes, but are you going to be able to change the profit motive of business? Nope. What you can change is how you market yourself and seeking other opportunities for in…

Good point but you misunderstood my argument. It's in the interests of corporations to push up supply and if you look they are doing just that. My concern is that without a counterbalance of developers advocating in the interest of the workforce; individuals will always be at a disadvantage. Why? In a business everything comes second to profits and the accumulation of capital. Anyone who has worked at a startup outsi…

I don't subscribe to all or nothings. Nobody is "always" a jerk. Nobody is "always" lazy. Neither are companies solely profit motivated. We don't live in a pure capitalist environment. This isn't a Ayn Rand novel. For example why would Google pay for free food for employees, why would other startups invest in so many "perks" to appease their employees.

I just think unions would dilute the market with highly paid developers on average but then average developers. Once you get the title of developer and get to be part of this union all developers regardless of skill would be paid the same. How is that fair? (If that's not how unions work then I cede my point).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#93

Post by [deleted] »

gigatexal wrote: post #92
quinequine wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point but you misunderstood my argument. It's in the interests of corporations to push up supply and if you look they are doing just that. My concern is that without a counterbalance of developers advocating in the interest of the workforce; individuals will always be at a disadvantage. Why? In a business everything comes second to profits and the accumulation of capital. Anyone who has worked at a startup outsi…

I don't subscribe to all or nothings. Nobody is "always" a jerk. Nobody is "always" lazy. Neither are companies solely profit motivated. We don't live in a pure capitalist environment. This isn't a Ayn Rand novel. For example why would Google pay for free food for employees, why would other startups invest in so many "perks" to appease their employees. I just think unions would dilute the market with highly paid deve…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#94

Post by itbeho »

"Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people:

First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization."

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#95

Post by chris_7 »

mikevp wrote: post #35
WorldMaker wrote: post #6

Part of it is that unions are associated with blue-collar work and developers feel that they are "too white-collar" for that sort of thing. There's no collar boundary to unionization, of course, but there is a perception that there is.

Unions tend to be for identical-cogs-in-the-machine, no differentiation between individuals, everyone marching in lockstep by strict seniority type careers. Tech types tend to be more like herding cats... not a good fit for unions.

Tom Brady is in a union... Leonardo DiCaprio is in a union...

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#96

Post by krapp »

gigatexal wrote: post #92
quinequine wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point but you misunderstood my argument. It's in the interests of corporations to push up supply and if you look they are doing just that. My concern is that without a counterbalance of developers advocating in the interest of the workforce; individuals will always be at a disadvantage. Why? In a business everything comes second to profits and the accumulation of capital. Anyone who has worked at a startup outsi…

I don't subscribe to all or nothings. Nobody is "always" a jerk. Nobody is "always" lazy. Neither are companies solely profit motivated. We don't live in a pure capitalist environment. This isn't a Ayn Rand novel. For example why would Google pay for free food for employees, why would other startups invest in so many "perks" to appease their employees. I just think unions would dilute the market with highly paid deve…

Companies don't offer perks out of the kindness of their hearts, they do so as an investment out of which they expect a greater return.

The cost of things like "free food" is usually paid for with lower salaries, longer work hours or cuts to benefits. In other words, if the value of a perk is n, then the company offering that perk is extracting a greater than n value from their employees elsewhere, without compensation, or else passing the cost on to customers, or both.

TANSTAAFL.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#97

Post by dsacco »

quinequine wrote: post #87
Kalium wrote: post #20

What could I expect to change in my daily working life by joining your "new model union"? Unions got buy-in from workers because they offered tangible benefits to workers. Shorter days, medical care, better pay, and so on. The items you list are public policy concerns that align well with a variety of advocacy groups. In virtually all cases, a specialist advocacy group seems better-suited to addressing the problem th…

You're right. Most developers could care less about anything that doesn't impact their daily working life. But I would argue that issues like wage suppression, security, and privacy have a huge impact on our work-life balance, income and the software we write. An organization of developers dedicated to collective bargaining would be able to support advocacy groups and give them teeth in their dealings with large mult…

No, I wouldn't agree. Collective bargaining organizations ("unions") are fundamentally designed to advocate for their members, not for peripheral issues in the industry (except where they directly impact members' work life balance, safety or compensation in a tangible way).

Personally, I would not be willing to join a union because I don't see any benefits they could give me in return for my money. I'm quite happy bargaining on my own, and advocating for the issues I care about, without a conglomerate middleman.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#98

Post by dsacco »

itbeho wrote: post #94

"Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective…

Do you have some more commentary to add about this to make it relevant to the discussion? You just threw out a sort of related quote without any connecting context to the question at hand.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#99

Post by dsacco »

booleandilemma wrote: post #64
mrmaximus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a future where a developer is paid the salary of a retail cashier and it scares me. The only way that will happen is if Point-of-Sale systems become so complex that a developer has to run them, or development becomes as easy as punching buttons on a Point-of-Sale system.

The difficulty of development doesn't have to change, and I'm not saying it will, but the number of people who know how to program will increase.

That concerns me as well. If you'd like some consolation, make a job post and interview "senior software engineers" sometime. Try fizzbuzz as a first question (yes, even in 2017).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#100

Post by dsacco »

solipsism wrote: post #16
czep wrote: post #11

There's probably some element of the Prisoner's Dilemma at play here. I'd join a union if I knew that we'd all have normal working conditions, no forced or coerced overtime, guaranteed health care, a pension plan, and a reserve in case of strike (the only thing unions have to negotiate with management). I'd accept a sizable pay cut if all that could be brought to the table. But unless there's critical mass, it's ever…

Why would a pay cut be involved? It's not clear to me the would be a pay cut. And without a pay cut how is the Prisoners Dilemma relevant?

In principle there is a pay cut if you have to pay dues, if nothing else.
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