Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 153 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#61

Post by MrLeap »

cam_l wrote: post #39
ChuckMcM wrote: post #15

Generally unionization is fought fairly hard by companies for the simple reason that it restricts what they can do and takes some control out of the hands of management. In the Bay area in the late 80's there was mumbling about unions after the great semiconductor flame out. A lot of people were laid off without warning and since it was widespread the ability to walk across the street and get rehired was limited. Sin…

Fully agree.. but I wonder what would happen if unions started to take a leaf out of the 'no poaching' corporate playbook and simply unionised secretly. Collective bargaining via synchronised individual bargaining, where everyone demands the same conditions on their employment. (Surely this could be appified ;) Perhaps if there were no official union, the vicious knock down would be much more difficult to focus. And…

This could be brilliant.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#62

Post by mrmaximus »

booleandilemma wrote: post #30

Because things are good now. Developers are making decent salaries. In most cases far better than their friends who chose other career paths. But I don't think it will always be this way. With the rise of bootcamps and the influx of new developers we're going to see over the next 15 years, thanks to all of today's kids learning to code, I think developers are at serious risk of becoming commoditized. I see a future w…

> I see a future where a developer is paid the salary of a retail cashier and it scares me.

The only way that will happen is if Point-of-Sale systems become so complex that a developer has to run them, or development becomes as easy as punching buttons on a Point-of-Sale system.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#63

Post by gigatexal »

meddlepal wrote: post #42
gigatexal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not teaching more people engineering is a good thing? Are you really advocating ignorance to artificially constrain the supply in the market of competent engineers? Non-competes, no-poaching, etc and illegal acts to constrain salaries are deplorable, yes, but are you going to be able to change the profit motive of business? Nope. What you can change is how you market yourself and seeking other opportunities for in…

There is a quota on doctors why not on engineers? We're already OK with the former.

Got a link to that quota on doctors?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#64

Post by booleandilemma »

mrmaximus wrote: post #62
booleandilemma wrote: post #30

Because things are good now. Developers are making decent salaries. In most cases far better than their friends who chose other career paths. But I don't think it will always be this way. With the rise of bootcamps and the influx of new developers we're going to see over the next 15 years, thanks to all of today's kids learning to code, I think developers are at serious risk of becoming commoditized. I see a future w…

> I see a future where a developer is paid the salary of a retail cashier and it scares me. The only way that will happen is if Point-of-Sale systems become so complex that a developer has to run them, or development becomes as easy as punching buttons on a Point-of-Sale system.

The difficulty of development doesn't have to change, and I'm not saying it will, but the number of people who know how to program will increase.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#65

Post by scamracket99999 »

q3r3qr3q wrote: post #13

Nice speech, Tony Robbins.

*quote "It's like asking why cats don't herd." rebuttal. http://english-zone.com/members/reading/ani-groups.html No, 'zero'. Cats do NOT herd together like cows. they CLOWDER together, like birds flock together in a V formation, flying south for the winter. Lions hunt in packs.

The first thing you do at ANY organization is to read Orwell's Animal Farm and classify the types of groups, organizations, cultures, etc. Some developers are TOP PREDATOR Lion cats. Perl versus Python versus Java versus Rust versus Haskell.

They love fighting and snarling at one another. The INTERNET WORKS BY diversity and PERL and Java and even Javascript. Even if javascript is such an ugly, ugly language. this is a joke. OK, I write OCaml to typescript to ??? to Javascript.

metaphor: programmers union is like 'herding cats' is a LAKOFF 'false framing.' WRONG and false argument. not based on nature and/or observation of nature and bio-mimicry patterns.

'disinformation campaign.' aka TROLLING aka - making you think your life's passion/career is like being a cat. Screwing your mind over. Psyops. fill in your own term. Scam Racket.

The Teamsters do driving. Even a Child and a robot can drive. But the Teamsters Union survives. WHY? If the crime-ridden Teamsters Union can do it, then even the 'cat-ridden' SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS UNION' can do it.

insert cat smiling, LOL.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#66

Post by russelluresti »

Historically speaking, unions do not form until the workers are in a crunch/threatened with losing their jobs. During these times, things are good for most developers so they don't see the need to unionize.

Unions are also only effective because they are generally location-based. If you want to build a building in New York, you have to get a construction crew that can work in New York. That makes it very easy for a group to unionize New York workers - because their tools for bargaining (e.g. strikes) are easy to carry out when centralized. But on the web, this is much more difficult. If you unionized all U.S. developers, companies would simply outsource to other countries where the union doesn't exist. And while there are a few international unions, AFAIK none of them are very effective at organizing. In short, digital work is very easy to outsource and makes unions completely ineffectual.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#67

Post by gigatexal »

solipsism wrote: post #24
quinequine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you're at, right? You'll find tons of developers on Upwork willing to work for less. Isn't that the future for most of us? We're tomorrow's factory workers. Corporations have already shown that they'll work to suppress wages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The long game is to promote STEM fields and increase supply - pushing down wages and benefits.

Isn't that the future for most of us? We're tomorrow's factory workers. Speak for yourself. What I do takes a lot more creativity, flexibility, and variety of types of skill than most factory jobs. I intend to continue to develop skills that can't be commoditized.

That is just it, too. We have to continue to get better. And wouldn't we want to be the best we can be or if you were a company have the best engineers you could afford creating your software? Why is the interview process at google so tough? They only hire ~1% of the applicants because they want to be the best. Developers are more than just simple assets they can be worth more than the sum of their parts/ their teams and that is why a compentent developer will always be well employed. If you think you're lacking maybe look into learning how to sell yourself better; seek opportunities to develop more confidence in interpersonal settings, get your finances in order to maybe take a risk and turn that side hobby into the next big thing. In an age where anyone can do anything with an API and an idea why stick to thinking the only way to move up is at your next performance interview?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#68

Post by cam_l »

slavik81 wrote: post #57
cam_l wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree.. but I wonder what would happen if unions started to take a leaf out of the 'no poaching' corporate playbook and simply unionised secretly. Collective bargaining via synchronised individual bargaining, where everyone demands the same conditions on their employment. (Surely this could be appified ;) Perhaps if there were no official union, the vicious knock down would be much more difficult to focus. And…

Unions are essentially a form of cartel, and they suffer from all the same organizational problems. Workers are faced with a prisoner's dilemma. The best individual choice is always to defect. To keep a unified front you need some sort of centralized force that prevents people from defecting. In traditional unions, it is enforced by law that all employees must join the union if the shop is unionized. A secret volunta…

True. But corporates seems to survive with majority cooperation and occasional defection. Perhaps there does need to be some mechanism to 'tat' the 'tits' who defect.

My take is that the major obstacle workers face in negotiating conditions, pay, and work, is information asymmetry. Having everyone negotiate from an increased negotiating position should help the honest workers as well as the defectors.. and one would hope, the employers.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#69

Post by scott_karana »

mixedCase wrote: post #27

I despise the bullyish behavior of most unions, in fact, the central organization that coordinates them in my country has often been called our "shadow government" due to how they blackmail the state on every issue to take advantage and force them to be wasteful with tax dollars, causing far more damage than what they undo. I am just a single person, but I wouldn't be caught dead in an union just from what I've seen…

How are companies themselves any different, except that they lobby publicly, with propagandist PR fanfare?
Post reply on HN