During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security • Hacker News Board

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#71

Post by cafard » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #17

I researched this some after Trump's executive order, and it is interesting because most people know about the Japanese internment because it was the largest, but we also interned Italians and Germans. These three groups were also prohibited from buying certain items that could potentially be used in sabotage.

Nations have commonly interned enemy aliens, e.g. P.G. Wodehouse. However, one hell of a lot of the "Japanese" interned were in fact native-born citizens.

My German-born great-grandparents were not molested by the government during WW I, though there was harassment of Germans and German-speakers. And in WW II the US had admirals and generals with names like Nimitz, Eisenhower, Eichelberger, Gerow.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#72

Post by paulddraper » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #60

paulddraper wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall numbers are hard to come by, especially for smallish incidents, but of the 23 acts of terrorism in 2016 killing a hundred or more people, 100% of them were done by Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in... > they're not being banned from the USA Were there countries with huge numbers of extremely violent mentally ill people, I have no doubt the US would limit or halt immigration…

Go back to the 1970s, and you'll see similar numbers by the Irish.

Okay...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in...

Perhaps you could be more specific?

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#73

Post by ericd » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

conistonwater wrote: post #30

iambateman wrote: post #15

I love this article, because we have to remind people that Americans have been afraid of Italians and Germans and Swedes and Jews and the Japanese and Muslims and the Chinese and DEFINITELY the Irish at one time or another. Established groups feared new groups. But in the end, these people generally brought new innovations and economic growth and interesting new foods. They mashed new cultures with old - not without…

I don't know how well it works on Trump supporters, but there's something that bugs me about this argument. It seems to take a moral issue (do you treat other people well?), and replace it with an economic issue (do you know of inventions, food, or some economic benefit from those people?). I feel like it's a racing certainty that many Italian-Americans lived ordinary lives, and didn't do anything out of the ordinary…

If one can't successfully appeal to someone's sense of morality (perhaps because they have different morals), one can try to appeal to their sense of self interest.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#74

Post by gm-conspiracy » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #42

Irish, italians, russians, jews, chinese, japanese... is there a group that america hasnt at some time feared? Did canadians get thier turn? Having a guilty and irrational fear of some group, whatever the group, seems almost part of american identity. I cannot think of any period of american history that wasnt steeped in such fears.

The 1990s?

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#75

Post by KirinDave » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

I like this article because it reminds us that "whiteness" is not actually a strictly racial identity. There are numerous factors that make someone "white" in America, which makes them acceptable to white nationalists. These purity rules can change over time to represent what's politically expedient.

Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern America)were once not only considered not "white", but were demonized even as much as other races that Europe has traditionally looked down on.

This is one of the primary reasons that fascism is such an uncomfortable situation for its citizens. Fascism thrives in the face of an "enemy" that can be defeated by force and a "strong leader." These enemies will be selected by convenience, not rationality.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#76

Post by splawn » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #56

ctrl-j wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. Neither do Muslims? I mean, show me the statistics that show that they have a higher terrorism rate than other groups. The IRA, the extremist christian groups, and the mentally ill all do a lot of damage as well, but they're not being banned from the USA. I think Muslims get targeted by the media because th…

Overall numbers are hard to come by, especially for smallish incidents, but of the 23 acts of terrorism in 2016 killing a hundred or more people, 100% of them were done by Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in... > they're not being banned from the USA Were there countries with huge numbers of extremely violent mentally ill people, I have no doubt the US would limit or halt immigration…

The issue with terrorism isn't the body count. Its all the destabilizing damage people do to themselves in response out of fear. Look at all this chaos over such a tiny body count.... its dumb, imo.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#77

Post by ctrl-j » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #56

ctrl-j wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. Neither do Muslims? I mean, show me the statistics that show that they have a higher terrorism rate than other groups. The IRA, the extremist christian groups, and the mentally ill all do a lot of damage as well, but they're not being banned from the USA. I think Muslims get targeted by the media because th…

Overall numbers are hard to come by, especially for smallish incidents, but of the 23 acts of terrorism in 2016 killing a hundred or more people, 100% of them were done by Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in... > they're not being banned from the USA Were there countries with huge numbers of extremely violent mentally ill people, I have no doubt the US would limit or halt immigration…

> but of the 23 acts of terrorism in 2016 killing a hundred or more people, 100% of them were done by Muslims.

From your link, 100% of those killing 100+ are done by the islamic state militants who are fighting what they consider to be a civil war.

If you cannot manage to see the distinction in that, then you don't really have an open mind about this discussion.

> It's fine to support open immigration, but denying that there is an unusual problem with violence in the Muslim community is indefensible.

Being scared shitless of over 1.5 billion people just because some of them are bad people, is just ridiculous. There isn't a problem with violence in the Muslim community. Go to any Muslim community not in the middle of a war, and I doubt you'll find more violence than you do in your average Jewish or Christian community.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#78

Post by pas » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

jackhack wrote: post #59

JackFr wrote: post #19

> By the 1920s, pseudo-scientists and polemicists in the 1920s popularized the notion that Italians were a separate race from Anglo-Americans. These scientists were 'pseudo' only in retrospect. It literally took a world war to knock eugenicists out of the mainstream. As we pat ourselves on the back today for being so rational and enlightened, we would do well to remember episodes like that and restore some sense of h…

Thank you for pointing this out. This was "settled science" of the day and to question it put one against much of the world scientific community. Just as a flat earth and an Earth-centric universe were once completely accepted without question, so was this. And today, in our age of satellites and electronic computers, we have our own misconceptions - areas where nagging little doubts or details that don't quite fit t…

Just FYI, String Theory is very much a quantum (field) theory. (See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ccXzM3x8A )

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#79

Post by klenwell » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

vixen99 wrote: post #38

JackFr wrote: post #19

> By the 1920s, pseudo-scientists and polemicists in the 1920s popularized the notion that Italians were a separate race from Anglo-Americans. These scientists were 'pseudo' only in retrospect. It literally took a world war to knock eugenicists out of the mainstream. As we pat ourselves on the back today for being so rational and enlightened, we would do well to remember episodes like that and restore some sense of h…

Just to be clear, this was not a small group of pseudo intellectuals. Eugenics was applauded almost universally by Progessives and Conservatives among others. Included we can count J. Maynard Keynes, Irving Fischer ('prevention of breeding of the worst'), Gunnar Myrdal (economics Nobel Prize) Bernard Shaw, Harold Laski, Sidney Webb and Julian Huxley, Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill and dozens of other famous n…

Don't forget the great Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. and his infamous phrase: "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

Holmes is an intellectual hero of mine. I keep it as a reminder that we all have our historical blindspots.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#80

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #56

ctrl-j wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. Neither do Muslims? I mean, show me the statistics that show that they have a higher terrorism rate than other groups. The IRA, the extremist christian groups, and the mentally ill all do a lot of damage as well, but they're not being banned from the USA. I think Muslims get targeted by the media because th…

Overall numbers are hard to come by, especially for smallish incidents, but of the 23 acts of terrorism in 2016 killing a hundred or more people, 100% of them were done by Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in... > they're not being banned from the USA Were there countries with huge numbers of extremely violent mentally ill people, I have no doubt the US would limit or halt immigration…

[deleted]