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During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

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Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#41

Post by zimpenfish »

ctrl-j wrote: post #39
paulddraper wrote: post #33

Nice thoughts, but none of the groups you mentioned in your analogy have the worldwide penchant for terrorism that Muslim groups do. Berlin, Brussels, New York, Israel, Orlando, etc. Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. I understand the tiny minority is the problem; just don't think your analogy to these other groups is an apt one.

> Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. Neither do Muslims? I mean, show me the statistics that show that they have a higher terrorism rate than other groups. The IRA, the extremist christian groups, and the mentally ill all do a lot of damage as well, but they're not being banned from the USA. I think Muslims get targeted by the media because th…

> The IRA

Indeed, Pete King, one of the group assembled to work on the "Muslim Ban" has been a long-standing supporter of the IRA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._King#Support_for_the_...

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#42

Post by sandworm101 »

Irish, italians, russians, jews, chinese, japanese... is there a group that america hasnt at some time feared? Did canadians get thier turn?

Having a guilty and irrational fear of some group, whatever the group, seems almost part of american identity. I cannot think of any period of american history that wasnt steeped in such fears.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#43

Post by matthewowen »

paulddraper wrote: post #33

Nice thoughts, but none of the groups you mentioned in your analogy have the worldwide penchant for terrorism that Muslim groups do. Berlin, Brussels, New York, Israel, Orlando, etc. Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. I understand the tiny minority is the problem; just don't think your analogy to these other groups is an apt one.

In the early 20th century people feared that Italians were all anarchists.

There's nothing particularly novel about modern fears that Muslims are all terrorists. It's just another case of othering.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#44

Post by knz »

finid wrote: post #24
knz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> United States is leading a bombing campaign that has recently killed over 50,000 people in Syria and Iraq Isn't it a bit disingenuous to omit the fact that both Iraq and Syria have areas experiencing active warfare? The bombing campaign is not occurring in a vacuum, is targeted at people engaged in warfare against us or our allies, and those conflicts have killed far more people than just the bombing campaign - inc…

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to omit the fact that both Iraq and Syria have areas experiencing active warfare? But what you seem to ignore is that the active warfare in both countries was caused by us. And in Libya too. Think about that. Those countries are now a mess because of "regime change".

I'm aware that the US/NATO was involved in the Arab Spring. But again, I think the reality was far more complex - Mohamed Bouazizi didn't immolate himself because the CIA/MI6 told him to. There were videos from the time of people marching and being shot by their governments - those governments could have chosen to bring meaningful reform but instead chose violence. Likewise with Assad in Syria - the CIA/MI6 aren't making him drop barrel bombs or use chemical weapons.

Even outside of internal pressures, geopolitics are at play as well - Iran and Russia are playing "the great game" as much as the US/NATO are in the fight against terrorism.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#45

Post by logfromblammo »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #21

My great-uncle was one of them. A second-generation immigrant, his father forbade any utterance of Italian in his household. But my great-uncle - born American - nontheless dealt with discrimination, and so he went a step further and changed his Italian name to Bill Morgan. Bill loved his country so much that when he failed the physical for the OSS - already an army captain - by being legally blind in one eye, he lie…

This is heavily stereotypical, but you can judge the loyalty of an Italian-American with just two questions:

  Where does your mother live?
  What's your favorite [sports] team?
If mom lives in the US, and the team plays baseball, NFL or NCAA football, or NBA or NCAA basketball, you could probably hand over the nuclear launch codes. If mom lives in Naples, and the team plays Euro-soccer, you'd better keep an eye on that guy. If mom lives in Windsor, Ontario, and the team is the Blue Jays, the test is inconclusive.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#46

Post by dsfyu404ed »

daemonk wrote: post #7

Seems like a lot of these historical incidents are being brought up recently. They are certainly interesting and perhaps show that humanity as a whole tend to repeat the same actions. But is it also the goal to attempt to justify the current immigration ban by citing history? Conway brought up the Obama's tightening of the Iraqi immigration during his term. Does that somehow justify Trump's immigration ban? I guess y…

On one hand all those enforcement agencies were a bunch of jerks to begin with. It's hard to make sense of how much of this crap is a result of the "muslim ban" and how much of it is business as usual that's being reported on as a result of the "Muslim ban."

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#47

Post by legodt »

paulddraper wrote: post #33

Nice thoughts, but none of the groups you mentioned in your analogy have the worldwide penchant for terrorism that Muslim groups do. Berlin, Brussels, New York, Israel, Orlando, etc. Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. I understand the tiny minority is the problem; just don't think your analogy to these other groups is an apt one.

Fun fact: the vast majority of North American terrorism is committed by white men. No other group since 9/11 has contributed more to terror than disgruntled white dudes in North America. Refugees are trying to escspe the same horrors you are describing. The situation is similar to the US turning away Jews under the banner of "America First" during WW2 because they feared Nazis sneaking in with the Jews. The "safe" countries you describe haven't been rocked by war, their national identities not torn down and confused by decades of installed dictators, foreign resource exploitation, and post-cold-war rebel group armings. Remember, we created the Taliban to fight the Russians. That one sure had some long lasting effects. Now we're empowering neo-nazis domestically to fight this perceived threat of Muslim people. How do you think this is going to play out when we're done being afraid of Muslims?

It's easy to be scared right now, but turning to racist rhetoric instead of finding parallels in history is what allows fascism to take hold. Read up, educate yourself, and come back tomorrow better ready for building a better tommorrow.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/01/31/most-te...

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#48

Post by URSpider94 »

paulddraper wrote: post #33

Nice thoughts, but none of the groups you mentioned in your analogy have the worldwide penchant for terrorism that Muslim groups do. Berlin, Brussels, New York, Israel, Orlando, etc. Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, and Japanese didn't immigrate to other countries and slaughter its citizens. I understand the tiny minority is the problem; just don't think your analogy to these other groups is an apt one.

I call complete BS.

"The 1909 murder of Elsie Sigel in New York, of which a Chinese person was suspected, was blamed on the Chinese in general and led to physical violence. "The murder of Elsie Sigel immediately grabbed the front pages of newspapers, which portrayed Chinese men as dangerous to "innocent" and "virtuous" young white women. This murder led to a surge in the harassment of Chinese in communities across the United States."" - from the Wikipedia article "Anti-Chinese Sentiment in the United States"

The article goes on to talk about the "yellow peril" theory, in which scholars believed that "China, India, Japan and Korea were attacking England and the U.S., but that Jesus Christ would stop them"

Here's a pretty thorough argument on the characterization of the Irish as terrorists: http://inthepastlane.com/when-americans-saw-irish-immigrants...

I'll also point out that one of the final pardons of President Obama was of a Puerto Rican nationalist who led the FALN, a group that executed multiple bombings in major US cities in the 1970's.

So your allegation that the linkage of Muslims to terrorist extremism is unique is provably untrue.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#49

Post by hospes »

melling wrote: post #29
mrgoldenbrown wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in Trump's camp have used the Japanese internment as "precedent" for a Muslim ban. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/us/politics/japanese-inte...

Why is called a Muslim ban? The Muslin world is around 1.7 billion people, and dozens of countries (almost 1/3 of world population): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Muslim_Percen... And we have over 3 million Muslims in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States People seem to label everything in politics with a positive or negative name, depending on their beliefs. The left and r…

They call it 'Muslim ban' because that term is used by Trump and his team [1]. He basically wanted to demonstrate to his voter base "I promised Muslim ban and I delivered it".

[1]"Trump asked for a ‘Muslim ban,’ Giuliani says — and ordered a commission to do it ‘legally’" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/tr...

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#50

Post by mantas »

soheil wrote: post #40
iambateman wrote: post #15

I love this article, because we have to remind people that Americans have been afraid of Italians and Germans and Swedes and Jews and the Japanese and Muslims and the Chinese and DEFINITELY the Irish at one time or another. Established groups feared new groups. But in the end, these people generally brought new innovations and economic growth and interesting new foods. They mashed new cultures with old - not without…

Maybe a better question to ask is why those groups have not been afraid of others at any point? If true, what makes Italians, Germans, Swedes, Jews, Japanese, Muslims, Chinese and the Irish not engage in bigotry and hatred of others. Come to think of it isn't that a sizable segment of the world population? And if so maybe the remaining segment(s) need to be identified better.

At least half of the groups you listed are well known as not exactly being tolerant to others, even today. Put in historical perspective and pretty much all of them were part of the world that "engage in bigotry and hatred of others".
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