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To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

quantamagazine.org

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Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#111

Post by FabHK »

Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote: post #99
Balgair wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiming in from Bio: Yep, this is true here too. I can't find the citations right now, but there was a recent study done through Elsiver's website. The group got a hold of the servers for Elsiver and took a look at page views. They wanted to know what the rates of papers being read was. It was... disheartening. They found that ~46% (again, not sure here as I can't find the source) of papers will never be looked at ou…

IIRC a lot of that has to do with spammy 'publication mill' journals. If you just look at 'decent' journals, the situation doesn't look nearly as dire.

Elsevier is a despicable firm, but their journals are hardly publication mills, so not sure that response holds water.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#112

Post by maverick_iceman »

contravariant wrote: post #94
110011 wrote: post #63

As a counterpoint to the overly exuberant article let me chime in as a graduating theoretical computer scientist. Math is hard and despite its beauty and allure academic life doesn't take place in a vacuum- ergo there's a lot of politics and pettiness from your peers. You should expect to invest years of your life into making progress on some hard problem with little encouragement in the meantime, this takes a tremen…

I don't think pursuing a career in academia was what he had in mind when he said 'do mathematics'. In fact he said specifically: >Teaching mathematics shouldn’t be about sending everybody to a Ph.D. program. That’s a very narrow view of what it means to do mathematics.

Doing serious research level mathematics (or any other science for that matter) is almost impossible outside academia. Doing serious work is hard and mentally draining. Mere mortals can't motivate themselves to do it unless the incentives align just right (i.e. being in academia). Also it takes all your time so forget about it if you have another job.

I know this from personal experience. After I joined industry I thought I'll do physics research in my own time. In fact, I can't even keep myself up to date about current research. Most journal articles require a lot of effort to go through, and I don't have that kind of energy after a work day.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#113

Post by maverick_iceman »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #65
Koshkin wrote: post #45

Well, mathematics is hard. It takes a lot of effort to really learn it, a lot of dedication and (self-)motivation. Not everyone can do it, and, frankly, very few people - even among those who have spent many years studying mathematics - could say that it is the best way to live your life.

I profoundly disagree. I believe that mathematics can be learned and appreciated by many, because mathematics is a language for articulating inner urges and perceptions that are common to a wide range of creatures, not only humans. This idea that mathematics is only for the few is self fulfilling, and perpetuated by narrow ideas of what it constitutes.

It's a nice sentiment but it isn't true. Most people don't have the necessary intellectual chops to understand even Euclidean geometry.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#114

Post by FabHK »

contravariant wrote: post #94
110011 wrote: post #63

As a counterpoint to the overly exuberant article let me chime in as a graduating theoretical computer scientist. Math is hard and despite its beauty and allure academic life doesn't take place in a vacuum- ergo there's a lot of politics and pettiness from your peers. You should expect to invest years of your life into making progress on some hard problem with little encouragement in the meantime, this takes a tremen…

I don't think pursuing a career in academia was what he had in mind when he said 'do mathematics'. In fact he said specifically: >Teaching mathematics shouldn’t be about sending everybody to a Ph.D. program. That’s a very narrow view of what it means to do mathematics.

Precisely.

In fact, in academia, in some fields (and mathematics is certainly among them), in some sense only "the best" contribute to pushing the field forward by working on the cutting edge.

And I think the author's point was that focusing only on that is an overly narrow view, and one can engage in maths in a recreational, joyful way, without aspiring to an academic career in it.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#116

Post by TrinTragula »

jerf wrote: post #103
ndh2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a counterpoint, that is exactly the point. Maybe it becomes clearer if you read the speech. Math is hard, but it's being made much, much harder than it has to be.

What's the alternative? I mean that seriously, not sarcastically or in a defeatist way; try to explore what the alternative might actually be. On the one hand, academia has become rather harsh and intimidating and there is room for all kinds of improvement. On the other hand... there is no world where whoever just wants to study math can just go study whatever they want for as long as they want, regardless of how wel…

An alternative would be a system where publishing isn't as important as obtaining results. Let small journals take care of everyday research and let only the big works end up in something that really define someone's carreer. There would be a lot less people with a "valuable" publication, but we do have other ways to judge people and assign spots as researcher. The problem is the way jobs in academia are assigned: the more you published, the more you get paid. This shifts the attention from knowledge to publishing. Just value people with the usual attitudinal tests unless thay discovered something truly remarkable.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#117

Post by smhost »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #113
blurbleblurble wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I profoundly disagree. I believe that mathematics can be learned and appreciated by many, because mathematics is a language for articulating inner urges and perceptions that are common to a wide range of creatures, not only humans. This idea that mathematics is only for the few is self fulfilling, and perpetuated by narrow ideas of what it constitutes.

It's a nice sentiment but it isn't true. Most people don't have the necessary intellectual chops to understand even Euclidean geometry.

You don't know that.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#118

Post by FabHK »

jerf wrote: post #103
ndh2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a counterpoint, that is exactly the point. Maybe it becomes clearer if you read the speech. Math is hard, but it's being made much, much harder than it has to be.

What's the alternative? I mean that seriously, not sarcastically or in a defeatist way; try to explore what the alternative might actually be. On the one hand, academia has become rather harsh and intimidating and there is room for all kinds of improvement. On the other hand... there is no world where whoever just wants to study math can just go study whatever they want for as long as they want, regardless of how wel…

Would you say the same about exercising and sport?

"There is really no point in doing any exercise unless you're aiming for Olympics level performance. Yes, it's somewhat harsh and intimidating. But there is no world where whoever just wants to can just go do sports and exercise what they want as long as they want, regardless of how well they do it."

I think that was the point of the article - doing maths as a way of life (like exercise), not just for your career with the aspiration of being the best.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#119

Post by gbersac »

gthtjtkt wrote: post #8

Based on all the supposed benefits of doing math, it sounds like people would be better off studying philosophy. Same benefits but a much broader appeal, and far more applicable to most people's everyday lives. When I finally "discovered" philosophy in college, I was angry that we hadn't been exposed to it at all in middle or high school. Instead, I'd been forced to waste years on things like math, biology, etc. that…

Totally disagree. Philosophie try to find answer to question which can't be answered. It's just a lot of energy wasted in unsolvable problems. And it is far easier. In philosophy there is no truth, everyone can be right.

Math is a lot tougher, and so, teach you discipline and rigor much better.

Re: To Live Your Best Life, Do Mathematics

#120

Post by jerf »

jgamman wrote: post #110
jerf wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative? I mean that seriously, not sarcastically or in a defeatist way; try to explore what the alternative might actually be. On the one hand, academia has become rather harsh and intimidating and there is room for all kinds of improvement. On the other hand... there is no world where whoever just wants to study math can just go study whatever they want for as long as they want, regardless of how wel…

"there is no world" - wasn't that what University was like before the 80s and still is in many other countries? minimal fees and some casual work and you can stay for as long as you can stand the conditions of the average student flat ;-) I think you are conflating the reality of your current culture with what was/is in other cultures.

If what you describe was even remotely the case, which I don't know, then there was some other filter in place preventing "everybody" from doing it. I can tell, because not "everybody" did.

Plus I suspect you missed my "regardless of how well they do it" clause. I doubt that you can flunk every math class over and over and just keep attending. Loopholes that big get noticed, exploited, and closed very quickly.

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