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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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341–350 of 451 posts

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#341
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose you want someone to just watch a parking lot which takes zero skills and I advertise for minimum wage and don't find anyone. Then you show up and say I need an H-1B, yes it's the night shift, but as unskilled labor that's a minim wage job... That's the point of around a six figure wage floor. It prevents people from understating the requirements then bringing in a H-1B. I could just Advertise for a secr…

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't even exist in the current H1B system. Where are all the H1B parking attendants? Do you really think "parking attendant, needs to speak random language for no discernible reason" is something USCIS can't filter? If it was that easy, Tata would just list all their IT jobs as requiring a Hindi/Bengali/etc. speaker and not need to bother with any of the crony capitalism. Also…

I am going to step back for some context:

The H-1B program is a tiny fraction of the overall workforce and if you want it to stick around you need to justify it. Saying industry X needs workers for wage Y, falls on deaf ears. No, it really does not because for the most part it get's by without them as there is just not a lot of H1B workers in any industry.

Having said that, at the societal level we can talk about gaps that a H-1B program can fill in the short term. If there is a sudden demand for people in machine learning then giving the US access to a wider talent pool has value. But, at the social level each industry needs to compete with every other industry or your talking about soviet style planned economies which don't work.

How do you separate companies wanting cheaper workers from gaps society is better off fulfilling? Well wage is by far the strongest indicator. If the oil drilling industry goes though a boom and can pay 200k for people working oil jacks for a few years then they should get most of the H1B pool as they may need it more than every other industry combined.

However, as the demand is met internally wages will fall then some other industry may have a larger demand.

Now the US is a horribly corrupt society with groups with a lot of power use it to get more power. Thus, the actual H1B program looks very different from what I described. But, again I am only saying there is a justification for an H1B program with a very strong salary floor not anything like our current system.

PS: Anyway, understating the requirements and advertising a job that's below market rates is one the main problems with the H1B system that's most often gamed. I have seen more than one advertisement for a junior job title with 5 years of experience and a masters degree. Lying on a form is easy, lying with money is harder.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#342

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

I used to agree with hungrygs' response. It appears right in many ways until I put TN and E3 visa in perspective. They tuk-tuk-tur is apt.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#343
post #333
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, Americ…

I'm not talking about CS students at US universities. I am talking about average joe college graduate who is apparently working in a Starbucks after college.

so you are making an assumption that no one who graduates with a CS degree has had to get a part time job?

are you serious?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#344
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a few fixes to that too. Make the pay scaling regional or put in provisions that increase the floor based on percentage travel or where the visa job would work.

This is how laws get really complicated. Wouldn't a more complex solution end up costing more (to the companies you are trying to help) than a simple solution?

It depends on what you're trying to do. Outwardly H1-Bs are supposed to be about bringing in talent that can't be filled with a US worker which should fetch a premium. To that end having just a blanket floor doesn't really make sense because a premium wage in Small Town, USA is a rounding error to large corporations in Big Tech Hub, USA. But you can't make the sliding scale too location sensitive because then you just open a new way to game the system with having big contractor sweat boxes all operating out of the middle of North Dakota or somewhere with market so tiny prices. I don't think a simple law could ever really run H1-B if the goal is 'bring in premium talent' for hard to fill positions especially in tech positions where location is becoming less and less critical.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#345
post #213
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're argument is that it's impossible for their to be an actual shortage of US workers unless the salary exceed $100K?

Yes, in the same way as there is no shortage of Bugatti Veyron for 100k. They simply cost more than that. We live in a capitalist society where price is how you communicate demand. Now, if you are willing to pay X times median wage in the US and still can't find people then perhaps there is an argument. But, saying you can't find people when you are not willing to go that far suggests you are not willing to pay marke…

Okay, but then why do you refuse to accept multiplying X by the actual market wage for the job instead of picking a fixed number (in which I see no X)?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#346
Dear policy makers and sections of HN, please maintain this unfavorable attitude towards immigrant tech workers for at least 4-8 years. Once this (unpleasant) feeling gets under our skin we will start departing in hordes and take that American Dream appeal with us.

(Probably a very bad analogy) a product is only as good as its fan base. We are fan of American Dream that's why we are okay with lining outside in the rain for 5-10 years. May be not for long.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it's not a tech job?

I'm confused; are you saying first-generation immigrants with a green card who are competing with US citizens in non-tech jobs don't have a level playing field?

No, my understanding of the proposal under consideration is a green card for any foreign student graduating from a US university. I was wondering if that was limited to high paying, in demand majors or would apply to history or radio-television-and-film. (I do so love picking on RTF majors.)

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#348
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a whole long thing, but i think its much better to just illustrate my point. You claim that H1B's: 1. can and should be used for entry level positions, because it is impossible to find entry level employees for programming 2. companies are completely unable to fill programming positions with US employees. So lets investigate those claims then. Well, good place to start is probably looking at the top job title…

Let me repeat that I am not denying the existence of H1B fraud. I am saying that H1B can and should be used for entry level positions as well. And if there are companies abusing the system, as you point out, they are breaking the law. They should be prosecuted and stopped.

an H1B visa is specifically for someone in a "Specialty occupation" and very specifically requires experience in the field.

>(3) 12/ For purposes of section 101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b1) , the term `specialty occupation' means an occupation that requires--

>(A) theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge; and

>(B) attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States.

So, since 'Entry Level' means someone without experience in the field - the H1B visa clearly does not apply to them.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you factor in cost of living, the consulting agencies that currently abuse the system will just open up offices in cheap areas.

Not really, because quality software development generally requires teams to be in close proximity. As has been discovered by many firms, moving operations overseas is "penny wise and pound foolish" For example, Disney of Florida replaced 250 American IT workers in US using immigrants with H1-B Visas. They in theory could have saved more money by sending that operation overseas but they chose not too. Computer operat…

> using immigrants with H1-B Visas

I think that's the problem here - those on H1-B visas aren't immigrants.

It is a dual intent visa and most outsourcing firms keep it strictly in the non-immigrant category.

Until they get a DoL clearance & get into an I-140 approval process, they're "temporary workers" who can be dispensed with any day.

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