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Computer Science Education

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Re: Computer Science Education

#171

Post by dwaltrip »

wolfgke wrote: post #141
dwaltrip wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about Spanish language programming courses? What about affordable housing? How do you define discrimination? I think there isn't a clear line, and we have to use our evolving best judgment depending on the context. How else can we attempt to more quickly resolve unfortunate and unfair dynamics the past has brought us? Lastly, I think it's a mistake to assume all discrimination is zero sum. We will all…

> How do you define discrimination? Using any other criterion than ability for e.g. staffing jobs/university places/... In this sense every forced quota on gender/skin color/race/... is discrimination. Women only programs are, too (as "men only", "white only" or "black only"). EDIT: > How do you feel about Spanish language programming courses? Living in Germany I openly don't understand what you want to imply with th…

I'm implying it's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Does Google fall under your definition? They must, or it wouldn't seem fair to be upset at them. What counts as a "program"?

If your complaint is mainly about quotas, I don't have as much to say about those. My intuition is that strict quotas are overly heavy handed and also treating the symptom not the cause. I would guess that programs that seek to help certain groups closer to the source (e.g. in the education and training phase) are more effective.

Re: Computer Science Education

#172

Post by HeavenBanned »

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #62
lineindc wrote: post #2

Instead of applauding this (oh, they are spreading knowledge), I'm going to point out that they just want cheaper labour.

I was wondering what their motivation is. Maybe this is it. It's so strange how so many programmers seem to want other people to learn to program. Why is this? I accepted a long time ago that probably less than 1% of the population have the ability to be a good programmer. And even if more had the ability, do we really need that many programmers? I can't imagine any other industry doing this. I don't go on to the web…

You can say the same thing about Calculus. "Why does nearly every single High School in the US teach Calculus in some form or another? Why do they push it on every child? Including in College for weeder courses?" Because it's critical, important and integral to our society. Now that programming has invaded nearly every aspect of our lives, wouldn't it be nice if we all taught everyone how to be programming literate? It would be like learning a language. Or learning Calculus.

Re: Computer Science Education

#173

Post by djaychela »

krashnburn200 wrote: post #152
rifung wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I work at Google (opinions are my own) How would the people filing the lawsuit know whether Google didn't hire them due to their age or for other reasons? I see posts all the time about people complaining they didn't get into company X because of some silly reason but frankly, unless you are the interviewer you likely will never know the reason. Shouldn't we wait to see the outcome of the case? Indeed Goo…

To play devils advocate here, Google has been an absolutely mind blowing company. They didn't do it by being Average, and perfect diversity means exactly that... Average. Why are people so interested in screwing up something that obviously works, and works so amazingly well in pursuit of absurd ideologies?

I think you're using a wrong definition of average there. Yes, if you aggregated every quality of the populace, then you would be correct. But talking of age, for instance, wouldn't be the case. I'm quite sure there are plenty of people older than me (45) who could run rings round many of Google's employees, but wouldn't get the chance to do so (or maybe want to be there given the culture).

Google may have been 'mind blowing' but there is a bucket-load of things they simply seem unable to do (such as have a clear overall strategy, leading to the mess that is their approach to messaging), and in addition while they have clearly been hugely profitable, they may not give the best experience for some of their users (I've heard the phrase 'regularly cut off [their] own limbs' used). Whether this would be changed if their workforce was more diverse in terms of age (and therefore more experienced) we will never know, but I have my suspicions.

Re: Computer Science Education

#174

Post by byubadger »

dwaltrip wrote: post #131
wolfgke wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always upset over discriminatory programs. If one would replace "women only" by "white people only", you would probably be upset, too.

How do you feel about Spanish language programming courses? What about affordable housing? How do you define discrimination? I think there isn't a clear line, and we have to use our evolving best judgment depending on the context. How else can we attempt to more quickly resolve unfortunate and unfair dynamics the past has brought us? Lastly, I think it's a mistake to assume all discrimination is zero sum. We will all…

>I think there isn't a clear line

A clear line has been drawn in the form of protected classes. Primary language spoken and income are not protected classes. Gender is.

Re: Computer Science Education

#175

Post by averageweather »

Spare_account wrote: post #23
xiaoma wrote: post #16

Are they offering anything on the site for people who want CS education? From clicking around a bit it seemed like it was focused entirely on people teaching and learning in physical classrooms. I was pretty excited at first, thinking this was something like a Google-sponsored version of EdX or OpenCourseware that was laser focused on CS.

From the linked page there is a section titled "Learn Computer Science" which contains a section titled "Student Learning" which contains a variety of learning resources that can be experienced through the browser. https://www.google.com/edu/cs/learn/student.html

I had the same excitement ... then seemed to find nothing resembling a path to a CS degree.

Re: Computer Science Education

#176

Post by wolfgke »

lorenzhs wrote: post #168
wolfgke wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you on about? The laws for women quota: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13551798 Otherwise: Nobody forces women to study a non-STEM subject - they decide it themselves. So doing promotional programs for women has the implicit implication "women are too stupid to get on their own what they should study (while men are smart enough to find this out on their own)" - something I would never ever claim.

No, nobody's claiming that. If that's your takeaway from outreach programmes, maybe you should talk to women about their experiences in computer science. The reason for outreach programmes is that what's currently offered seems to appeal to men but not nearly as much to women, and that we should fix that. There's nothing patronising about admitting a problem and attempting to alleviate it. Some attempts might be misg…

> (Since we're talking about computer science education, I'll disregard the entirely unrelated comment about quotas in businesses.)

There are also (more implicit) women quota in the university laws (Landeshochschulgesetzen) of Germany's federate states e.g. for casting professors.

Re: Computer Science Education

#177

Post by Anm »

randomdata wrote: post #104
derrickdirge wrote: post #59

I was really hoping this was going to provide some path to completing my CS degree. At least they're acknowledging the importance of education.

What is the importance of a CS education? I honestly don't feel like my exposure to CS has changed my life in any way outside of my career. If I imagine some future where I am retired, it is not obvious to me where I will use anything I have learned or how it will shape me into being a better person. It certainly has been useful to me in finding gainful employment, but if that is the only thing it brings to the table…

"...outside of my career"

Ummm... isn't that a pretty major effect? Doesn't that have some impressive side effects?

I watch my so many of my non-CS friends cycle through jobs (and debt) with limited ability to add long-term stability. If information sciences are having an impact on every industry, and encouraging students to explore those options gives them better access to jobs, and thus improve their life, that seems like a noble goal.

Re: Computer Science Education

#178

Post by bbarn »

krashnburn200 wrote: post #152
rifung wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I work at Google (opinions are my own) How would the people filing the lawsuit know whether Google didn't hire them due to their age or for other reasons? I see posts all the time about people complaining they didn't get into company X because of some silly reason but frankly, unless you are the interviewer you likely will never know the reason. Shouldn't we wait to see the outcome of the case? Indeed Goo…

To play devils advocate here, Google has been an absolutely mind blowing company. They didn't do it by being Average, and perfect diversity means exactly that... Average. Why are people so interested in screwing up something that obviously works, and works so amazingly well in pursuit of absurd ideologies?

Google got lucky. There were lots of sites out there when it was turned on that did the exact same thing. They figured out how to monetize searching before the others did, and once market share was had, it was and still is unbreakable.

Everything else other than advertising has failed or is held up by that ad revenue. They may want to play world leaders, but they're an ad company.

Now - back to your point about absurd ideologies, it's against the US law to discriminate based on age. This ad company needs to play by the rules, regardless of how many ads it has sold.

Re: Computer Science Education

#179

Post by mbarq »

defnfoo wrote: post #106

Meanwhile, google discriminates against older people ("old" being pretty much anyone in their late 30s). They are so inclusive, and so diverse... as long as they get to decide what diversity and inclusivity are. http://www.businessinsider.com/google-loses-ruling-in-age-bi...

This. I got a BFA straight out of high school on a full-ride. Thought things were gonna work out great for me in the movies, but life happens.

I then went back to school as an "older student" at 25 and holy cow is it hard! Most Unis don't want you (literally), getting any kind of scholarship beyond a loan is out of the question, most of these "opportunities" are usually offered for people in high school or just starting college...

I mean, it's great for them. However, just thinking about the US' current economic problems where automation and trade are shutting down blue-collar jobs and these people don't have any other skills but would like to maybe try something in tech but can't...it's no wonder shit's hitting the fan right now.

Re: Computer Science Education

#180

Post by duderific »

> Computers are everywhere in our world today and being an educated citizen requires an understanding of the fundamentals of computer science and its underlying problem-solving methodology of computational thinking.

I know this is just some copywriter writing this, but this seems the height of Silicon Valley bubble thinking. Plenty of people do just fine in their lives barely interacting with computers at all.

Sure, it's helpful to be able to use email and a web browser, but "being an educated citizen requires an understanding of the fundamentals of computer science"? Come on.

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