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John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

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Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#81
I recently served on a jury in an assault and battery case. The defense offered a psychological defense and called a psychologist as an expert witness. The witness offered a few theories which were credible but not evidentiary. The prosecution, however, did not attempt to contradict the claims, and instead argued that the witness was too expensive and did not have much contact with the defendant.

It was a mistrial due to jury deadlock, as reasonable doubt was present.

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course if you start to fill a jury with people competent in the area being judged, you run different risks, such as bias within the field. A bigger problem is defining field boundaries and determine who gets to judge qualifications, both of which introduce points at which biases can be introduced systematically.

I'd settle for not actively weeding out experts as we do in the current voir dire process.

Eliminating (or reducing the number of) peremptory challenges might go along way to achieving this, domain expertise itself usually will not support a dismissal for cause. (Though it might be an earlier link in a chain of questioning that reveals a cause for dismissal, but that's perfectly legitimate.)

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#83
This is a thorny issue because say you could make the argument that if I spend 5 years writing and rewriting code from 0.1 to 0.8 at company A to understand a domain, then I move to company B and write 0.9 and 1.0 in the same domain and make a pile of $$$, then company A should somehow be compensated even if the code itself is not exactly the same (which it wouldn't be since you learned from mistakes made).

On the other hand if you take, for example, an engineer who learns to build bridges and builds a lot of bridges in one company, and then moves to a different company still building bridges, one would not think that just because they build a great bridge at company B, company A should be compensated.

Where do you draw the line between 'improving your craft / becoming a better software developer' to 'taking a company's IP'?

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#84

An interesting statement on things that may be relevant in the grand scheme of the trial, but, unless I'm really missing something here, the verdict was about busting an NDA (the Code being downstream of the NDA violation). Hence the $500M vs the $4B in damages. If it was just about code, then I'm sure Carmack's points would hold up just as well as they read in hindsight. But - and it's a big but - keep in mind his p…

I believe the "non-literal copying" thing simply refers to the insight gained from the R&D time he spent on Occulus while still an employee of Zenimax. 90% of HN members know that this deep understanding is FAR, FAR, FAR more valuable than blindly copying over code.

It was this deep understanding that made Occulus valuable and it was seemingly funded on Zenimax's time and dime.

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#85

I don't have the evidence so I can't make a judgement about whether Zenimax or Carmack is in the wrong here, but this does point out something strange in our court system and that is where a "jury of peers" which translates to normal people with little to no knowledge of the underlying subject matter. As our society becomes more specialized it seems a bit absurd to have people make judgements mostly based on how well…

I may be wrong but don't both sides get to choose the jury? If that's in fact the case, then the jury is made up of a group of people that both sides want making the decision.

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#86
post #7

I often wonder if John was involved with the story telling aspect of his games, not just the code.

John Romero was largely responsible for the stories and designs of the old school iD games from back in the day. Carmack brought the tech brilliance to make it happen.

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why is there an assumption that you can explain anything to anyone? There is no law of nature stating that the maximum complexity anyone can invent is smaller than the complexity the average person can understand.

I'd say there are very few people who are doing things so out there that they cannot explain what they are doing. We aren't that special. We aren't magical unicors who work in all corners of our galaxy. No we are programmers, PhDs, mechanics, engineers. Our jobs share a lot in common with each other and can be easily broken down to their base components. That's the job of a programmer like Carmack. To break things do…

> I'd say there are very few people who are doing things so out there that they cannot explain what they are doing.

So, those very few people out there are basically fucked up with no recourse? How few are they?

Anyway, yep, we are normal people. Normal people that spent a decade or four learning something very specialized. Now, why should we take for granted that people that never learned anything in our specialty can understand anything we know in a week?

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#88
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very common argument against juries, and I think it's one of the most powerful. Of course if you start to fill a jury with people competent in the area being judged, you run different risks, such as bias within the field. And it's still not clear that it would help with delivering justice. But if we take the idea of a jury to be about judging by one's peers, it should be patently clear (heh) that the jury o…

Ignoring the idea of a corporation being judged by other corporations, the idea that "peers" should be judged more strictly (i.e., limited to "people in similar situations" monetarily, professionally, etc.), I feel like you would run a very clear risk of creating juries that function similarly to "good-old-boy networks" that are unwilling to judge too harshly.

Wouldn't a combination of both balance that issue?

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#89
post #60
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very common argument against juries, and I think it's one of the most powerful. Of course if you start to fill a jury with people competent in the area being judged, you run different risks, such as bias within the field. And it's still not clear that it would help with delivering justice. But if we take the idea of a jury to be about judging by one's peers, it should be patently clear (heh) that the jury o…

I once espoused a similar opinion, but have since changed my mind. I'm a physicist, and once expressed to a judge I had met on the trail that I wished I could be judged by my academic peers. It was my belief that they would be more receptive to logical argument, understanding in their analysis, and more committed to fundamental principles. The judge was visibly surprised, but said little. What later changed my mind w…

> I wished I could be judged by my academic peers. It was my belief that they would be more receptive to logical argument, understanding in their analysis, and more committed to fundamental principles.

Have you met any academics?

Re: John Carmack on expert witnesses and 'non literal' copying

#90

I don't have the evidence so I can't make a judgement about whether Zenimax or Carmack is in the wrong here, but this does point out something strange in our court system and that is where a "jury of peers" which translates to normal people with little to no knowledge of the underlying subject matter. As our society becomes more specialized it seems a bit absurd to have people make judgements mostly based on how well…

Juries are a choice. If they want an expert then both sides can go for a bench trial. If a judge isnt expert enough, then you are out of luck. Matters must be decided in a manner understandable to the outside world. A courts decision must be understandable by other courts. Otherwise every case will be ad hoc, leading to essentially random outcomes. Dont like it? Then settle out of court.
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