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Computer Science Education

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Re: Computer Science Education

#141

Post by wolfgke »

dwaltrip wrote: post #131
wolfgke wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always upset over discriminatory programs. If one would replace "women only" by "white people only", you would probably be upset, too.

How do you feel about Spanish language programming courses? What about affordable housing? How do you define discrimination? I think there isn't a clear line, and we have to use our evolving best judgment depending on the context. How else can we attempt to more quickly resolve unfortunate and unfair dynamics the past has brought us? Lastly, I think it's a mistake to assume all discrimination is zero sum. We will all…

> How do you define discrimination?

Using any other criterion than ability for e.g. staffing jobs/university places/... In this sense every forced quota on gender/skin color/race/... is discrimination. Women only programs are, too (as "men only", "white only" or "black only").

EDIT:

> How do you feel about Spanish language programming courses?

Living in Germany I openly don't understand what you want to imply with this question.

Re: Computer Science Education

#142

Post by shuntress »

wolfgke wrote: post #127
mcguire wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of high skilled tech jobs aren't held by men? There are no selective barriers to entry?

People are free to study what they want. If there are more men who want to study a STEM subject, this will of course lead to a majority of men. Indeed, typical STEM subjects have no limitation on your A-level mark (Numerus Clausus) for being allowed to study it. So there is clearly no selective barrier to entry (Numerus Clausus) [but I'm not a native speaker of English - so it can be that "selective barriers to entry…

Have you ever been somewhere where it was clear everyone noticed you didn't 'fit in'?

Re: Computer Science Education

#143

Post by chrisfosterelli »

defnfoo wrote: post #118
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was past 40 when I was hired at Google, worked there for almost 10 years, knew many other older devs. I disagree that they were discriminatory. At least in my experience, that was not an issue.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

> the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42.

This assumes that the hiring market for Google is representative of the entire US workforce, which I think is a big stretch. I think if you looked at any tech company average you'd see it far below the national average.

Re: Computer Science Education

#144

Post by Chris2048 »

tdkl wrote: post #27
libeclipse wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? So a lawsuit to allow more people access to knowledge resulted in no one having access to more of it. Damn, that's just.. I'm struggling to refrain from saying a word that'd get me in trouble.

Yes, we live in a time where minorities tyrannize the rest.

I'd pause to blame them, ultimately the law allows this stuff to happen.

Re: Computer Science Education

#146

Post by randomdata »

mcguire wrote: post #140
randomdata wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the importance of a CS education? I honestly don't feel like my exposure to CS has changed my life in any way outside of my career. If I imagine some future where I am retired, it is not obvious to me where I will use anything I have learned or how it will shape me into being a better person. It certainly has been useful to me in finding gainful employment, but if that is the only thing it brings to the table…

Really? I find myself touching on some part of my CS education almost every day, and I'm not currently employed. But then, I got into CS because I enjoyed it, back when it wasn't the hot new job skill. It's as much part of who I am as bitter cynicism and an inordinate love of fried rice.

As they say, it is difficult to appreciate something until it is gone. It may be that I fail to recognize the value it has brought to my life simply because I do not know a life without it. And it has been a part of almost my entire life, as I too enjoy it, and started my journey into the topic of CS when I was very young.

How are you touching on some part of your CS education each day in an important way? I may not even realize how I use it in my own situation, outside of the obvious practical application of writing software.

I look to my family and friends, many of whom know nothing about CS, and they have quite meaningful and fulfilling lives. It still doesn't seem all that important in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Computer Science Education

#147

Post by wolfgke »

shuntress wrote: post #142
wolfgke wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are free to study what they want. If there are more men who want to study a STEM subject, this will of course lead to a majority of men. Indeed, typical STEM subjects have no limitation on your A-level mark (Numerus Clausus) for being allowed to study it. So there is clearly no selective barrier to entry (Numerus Clausus) [but I'm not a native speaker of English - so it can be that "selective barriers to entry…

Have you ever been somewhere where it was clear everyone noticed you didn't 'fit in'?

> Have you ever been somewhere where it was clear everyone noticed you didn't 'fit in'?

There are multiple ways to answer the question:

1. I often don't fit in - and don't consider this as a problem.

2. I have yet to see a woman studying a STEM subject who is very skilled at it and made such complaint.

3. Saying one does not study, say, computer science because one does not fit in means that "fitting in" is more important to you than the things you learn in computer science. In other words: You don't consider CS as something really important to you. This is clearly not the inner urge for the subject that I expect from people studying it.

Re: Computer Science Education

#148

Post by Chris2048 »

Yizahi wrote: post #76
tdkl wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we live in a time where minorities tyrannize the rest.

No. Minorities are still in worse situation than majority globally. And all so called "minority tyranny" is just a random malfunctioning of institutes usually directly involved in screwing minorities. E.g. some black woman successfully sued some white white male for racial/gender reasons and it was bad for common sense? That's because it was possible in the first place to do that, only previously it was done the othe…

> Minorities are still in worse situation than majority globally

The "group average" of a persons designated (prescribed?) demographic is irrelevant on the level of comparing individuals and their interactions.

> only previously it was done the other way.

Given it was different individuals, this is only true if you define groupings specifically to, say, match a racist white and a non-racist white, from different generations, simply because they are both white; Hence mistreatment of some innocent, random modern white can be interpreted as 'comeuppance'..

Re: Computer Science Education

#149

Post by Chris2048 »

matt4077 wrote: post #31
Mayzie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue was that people with disabilities across the country (i.e. non-Berkeley-students) were suing Berkeley for not making their videos disabled-friendly. What the f#$k? Suing because their videos are not "disabled-friendly"? What does that even mean? God, the lawsuit trigger-happiness of some people...

> "disabled-friendly"? What does that even mean? I'd say lawsuits such these would be far fewer if people were at least aware of the existence of disabled people, and spend a modicum of attention on how to enable their participation in society. "video" being latin for "to see" may provide a clue as to the type of disability that could have trouble accessing this content. I'm not familiar enough with the subtleties of…

> whoever made this ill-fated decision at Berkeley

The legal instruments that caused this are to blame, not Berkeley. It's not Berkeley's job to manage public opinion wrt disability access when it regards the action of third parties.

Re: Computer Science Education

#150

Post by wolfgke »

defnfoo wrote: post #118
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was past 40 when I was hired at Google, worked there for almost 10 years, knew many other older devs. I disagree that they were discriminatory. At least in my experience, that was not an issue.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

> the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42.

Correlation does not imply causation.

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