What's up with parents driving kids to school? My generation, born in the late 70s, was rarely dropped off or picked up from school.
Everyone took the bus or walked.
How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
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Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#62Crime in many parts of America is higher than it was in medieval and middle ages in Europe, judged by intentional homicide rates. Also, crime approximated by intentional murder rate, outside of periods of war, is historically higher now than in history. source: https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/#germany
I've heard that there was a sharp increase from the early 20th century to the 70s-80s, then a small decline since then (maybe due to deleading gasoline among other things), and it seems to have happened in other countries too http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/olym....
It's a bit hard to judge since there are only a few crimes where measurement has been consistent and good, e.g., homicide and violent crime. And there you have to take into account the decline in lethality due to better medical care:
https://twitter.com/RAVerBruggen/status/754446756805509120
https://twitter.com/RAVerBruggen/status/756512858331082752.
I'd like to see the trend in assaults, which would be most relevant to free-range parenting, but haven't been able to find it anywhere.
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#63There's nothing I want more than to let my kids roam like I did in the late 80s and early 90s. Sadly, I can't, because I'm quite literally afraid that someone will take my kids (completely ignoring that the real dangers of the foster home system vastly exceed any risk I would let my kids take).
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be fair, in a recent brief visit to Switzerland I stayed with some friends in a small village near Zug and saw examples of this sort of attitude throughout more aspects of life than just child-raising. For example, many farmers were leaving produce out with price tags on and relying on an honour system for payment. Some did a 'pay what you want' system for their produce and just relied on people to do the right th…
Forget farms, this is even how the supermarket produce section works in Switzerland. You pick your stuff, you weigh it yourself, you choose the right tag (without anyone looking over your shoulder) and then you go to a (nowadays potentially automated) cashier. Heck, it's how the tax system works as well. Government has no way of knowing how much is actually on your bank account, well at least not officially (gov was…
> "You pick your stuff, you weigh it yourself, you choose the right tag"
How is that different from self checkout in most of the big food stores in USA?
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#65What's up with parents driving kids to school? My generation, born in the late 70s, was rarely dropped off or picked up from school.
I grew up in LA. I lived half an hour from school and there was no school bus service, so my parents HAD to drive me.
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#66It's odd that mobile phones didn't change this trend. You'd think the giving a 6 year old something they could use if they did get in trouble and that enabled parents to talk to them would make it safer. I walked to school in the 1980s and would really like my kids to do the same, but my partner, who also walked to school, won't have it.
Or because they have phones they are using them to communicate instead
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#67This American Life had a funny anecdote illustrating the opposite extreme where a woman who doesn't quite understand the meaning of "summer camp" leaves her kids at a campground by themselves for a week. My mother emigrated to the United States from Germany in the '50s. And her understanding of American culture and traditions wasn't always quite clear. And one of her confusions was about summer camp. She knew that ki…
I feel like this more than a cultural misunderstanding. It would not be considered normal or acceptable to leave your children alone for so long in Germany either.
Well, a day or two would be normal if the environment is trustworthy – such as a known campsite – but not otherwise.
I’ve also met two people who went on vacation (to another country!) on their own with 14 and 16yo, and no one seemed to consider that weird either.
But yeah, even in Germany leaving 10-12yos alone for a week would be unusual in the post-1960 world.
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#68I suspect this is not just an American or British or solely cultural thing but also a number-of-children thing. This seems like it would also be the natural response to having fewer children. If you have 3-10 kids, you can "afford" to let them off the leash so to speak, if only psychologically. Your kids going missing or getting hurt is an eventuality anyway, maybe. If you have 1 or 2 kids, you are investing a lot mo…
Take Japan as a counterpoint, or Switzerland just to name two that have been discussed on this thread and have a lower birth rate than the US. The extremism is mainly an american thing.
Obviously is a continuum with total supervision 24 hours a day on on end and nothing on the other, and most societies fall somewhere in the middle, but this level of extremism is mostly an american thing.
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#69When I grew up (in Australia) in the early-to-mid 90s I was allowed to roam quite a bit. The rough rule of thumb was that I would need to be home by sunset or have already called mum from a friend's house letting her know where I was and agreeing to a plan to stay after sunset. I think my parents struck a pretty good balance between driving me places when it made sense vs. just making me ride a bike/walk to the local…
Same for me, go anywhere but be back by 6 when dinner goes on the table.
I wonder if this explains a lot about child hood obesity, when ever I go back to where I grew up I'm amazed at the sheer number of miles I did everyday by walking or by bike. If I stay with my parents now and go to the beach I'm getting a lift or a cab, but we used to walk or bike from the same house, often multiple times a day. Often laden with fishing gear as well.
Re: How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a Swiss with a small child, this is the main reason why I couldn't move to the US or UK. Your 70ies examples are still common enough in Switzerland. 6 year olds are sent to Kindergarden on their own (after a bit of training with their parents). Put the visibility triangle on and off you go. Parents are discouraged by the school authorities to bring by car. Today looking back at this I can see the value. Maybe it h…
To be fair, in a recent brief visit to Switzerland I stayed with some friends in a small village near Zug and saw examples of this sort of attitude throughout more aspects of life than just child-raising. For example, many farmers were leaving produce out with price tags on and relying on an honour system for payment. Some did a 'pay what you want' system for their produce and just relied on people to do the right th…
I recall my childhood in rural Australia and am greatful for our freedom then and hopefully still now. We would ride for hours all around town, once even riding to a neighboring town along the coast.
Doors and cars are also typically unlocked, sometimes the keys are left in the car too. I have always mused that if you wanted to steal a bunch of cars you would just take a trailer to a country town and load them right up.
It all worked out fine because it was a small community and people would know who did what. Steal a car? Where are you gonna drive it? Everyone will know it's not yours.
The other thing I imagine helps is that there are fewer mentally unstable people just thanks to there being fewer people. So someone "a bit off" would be known to the community. That can be good and bad.