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Using Vim as a Python IDE

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Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#111

Post by xbrother »

Arizhel wrote: post #109
dotancohen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only been coding for 11 years professionally, but also as a hobby before that. Only in 2016 did I move most of my work out of VIM into an IDE: the Jetbrains family. That mostly started for better interactive debugging, but with IDEAVim handling 95% of my VIMisms I find that I'm simply coding in PyCharm and PhpStorm by default now. The base editor is open source but you can get the full PyCharm for $99 per year.…

I've used PyCharm. The editing feature is beyond useless to me, because it does not have vim key bindings. How am I supposed to cut and paste code when commands like "y}" don't work? You actually expect me to use a mouse to select things or move the cursor? Ridiculous. The only thing I've found PyCharm good for is doing other functions, like linting, not for the actual code editing. No IDE is any good for that. Lucki…

There is VIM plug-in for Intellij family IDEs. It covers the great part of VIM functionality. It even supports some sort of VIM configs. "y}" works fine, as well as "yi{".

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#112

Post by rantanplan »

nameless912 wrote: post #102
rantanplan wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debugging directly on the production system? Yeah, nobody does that. Well, nobody who has any kind of serious operation going on. If you can't replicate a bug outside a production environment you have a serious deficit in the devops department. You should be able to stage a machine with a copy of the production DB/data and the same reproducible package(code) that currently runs on your production systems. Everything…

> Debugging directly on the production system? Yeah, nobody does that. Uh, what bubble are you living in? Almost everyone does that to some extent. We can all pretend we're code ninjas with super clean deployment pipelines and strict policies, but all of us get lazy occasionally.

"Almost everyone does that".

No they don't. I am not living in a bubble. You're describing a mom and pop shop.

And by the way you don't have to be a code ninja or have a super devops team for that.

You can have your code locally, point your DB config to a staging server with a copy(you do backups daily, don't you?) of production and boom!

Seriously now... elementary stuff. If you're still changing code directly on live systems you have a long way to go.

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#113

Post by rantanplan »

thinkmassive wrote: post #101
rantanplan wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debugging directly on the production system? Yeah, nobody does that. Well, nobody who has any kind of serious operation going on. If you can't replicate a bug outside a production environment you have a serious deficit in the devops department. You should be able to stage a machine with a copy of the production DB/data and the same reproducible package(code) that currently runs on your production systems. Everything…

>> in those rare cases when you can't replicate bug locally > directly on the production system? Why does 'non-local' have to equate to production? Are you able to use an IDE in your container/VM/cloud server?

Yes, PyCharm supports Vagrant, Docker etc.

My host system is Fedora but since our production code is deployed on Ubuntu, I have a Vagrant Ubuntu image. PyCharm reads the Vagrantfile and it has access to the virtualenv(python in our case) of the Vagrant's image.

UPDATE: I am not sure if that's what you were asking. Maybe this response(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13543158) I gave is more relevant ?

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#114

Post by therealmarv »

Arizhel wrote: post #109
dotancohen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only been coding for 11 years professionally, but also as a hobby before that. Only in 2016 did I move most of my work out of VIM into an IDE: the Jetbrains family. That mostly started for better interactive debugging, but with IDEAVim handling 95% of my VIMisms I find that I'm simply coding in PyCharm and PhpStorm by default now. The base editor is open source but you can get the full PyCharm for $99 per year.…

I've used PyCharm. The editing feature is beyond useless to me, because it does not have vim key bindings. How am I supposed to cut and paste code when commands like "y}" don't work? You actually expect me to use a mouse to select things or move the cursor? Ridiculous. The only thing I've found PyCharm good for is doing other functions, like linting, not for the actual code editing. No IDE is any good for that. Lucki…

This sound you are trapped in vim keybindings. There is no need to use a mouse on "normal" editors.

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#115

Post by nameless912 »

rantanplan wrote: post #112
nameless912 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Debugging directly on the production system? Yeah, nobody does that. Uh, what bubble are you living in? Almost everyone does that to some extent. We can all pretend we're code ninjas with super clean deployment pipelines and strict policies, but all of us get lazy occasionally.

"Almost everyone does that". No they don't. I am not living in a bubble. You're describing a mom and pop shop. And by the way you don't have to be a code ninja or have a super devops team for that. You can have your code locally, point your DB config to a staging server with a copy(you do backups daily, don't you?) of production and boom! Seriously now... elementary stuff. If you're still changing code directly on li…

And you're describing a pipe dream that doesn't happen in real engineering orgs. I think I can speak for most people here when I say that the best of DevOps intentions only last until your first fire. You can design for best practice, but odds are something will happen that requires you to jump onto a moving train and figure out what the hell is going on. That doesn't mean that DevOps is pointless, it just means that a dose of realism is required to understand how to do real engineering. Sometimes you just won't be able to do things the "right" way because you only have time to do them the "wrong" but still working way before your customer gets pissed. The real world has very different requirements than a management textbook.

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#116

Post by therealmarv »

general_ai wrote: post #47
therealmarv wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this is your use case. I use Linux every day but I never touch python code directly on remote systems (it's getting automatically or manually deployed). All my python code lives in virtualenv locally here. But I understand when people work for many projects they maybe want to encapsulate it more (vagrant etc.).

I prefer console in general, for everything. I've been doing this for 20+ years, and you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Console for everything is the same like saying I never touch console, only GUI. There is a usecase for everything... I also want to see how you manage a bigger Java project from console with your 20+ years of expertise.

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#117

Post by rantanplan »

nameless912 wrote: post #115
rantanplan wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Almost everyone does that". No they don't. I am not living in a bubble. You're describing a mom and pop shop. And by the way you don't have to be a code ninja or have a super devops team for that. You can have your code locally, point your DB config to a staging server with a copy(you do backups daily, don't you?) of production and boom! Seriously now... elementary stuff. If you're still changing code directly on li…

And you're describing a pipe dream that doesn't happen in real engineering orgs. I think I can speak for most people here when I say that the best of DevOps intentions only last until your first fire. You can design for best practice, but odds are something will happen that requires you to jump onto a moving train and figure out what the hell is going on. That doesn't mean that DevOps is pointless, it just means that…

Well I don't know what your friends, social or professional circle is, but it does happen.

What I describe is not out of a management textbook. This is really really elementary stuff if you want to sustain any serious operation.

Let me explain: so you're saying a customer is on fire. Let's say that a query generated by that customer for some reason it creates a spike in your DB. Let's say that it almost DOSes your system. You know it doesn't happen locally, with your dummy/fixture data and it doesn't happen with other users/customers. So some particular configuration of state(your DB) is creating this problem. What are you gonna do my friend? Retry the query on production while you have a debugger on the webapp process? Please... be serious.

Remember, it's only once you have to setup this kind of infrastructure(and you can scale it up or down depending on your resources). And then you can do business like a normal person. What you describe is like throwing my sanity out of the window every time there's a severe(or not) support issue ticket. It doesn't scale!

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#118

Post by Synroc »

no_wizard wrote: post #95

I want to give a shout out to spacemacs.org which let's you do so many of these things and really does feel like the best of Emacs and Vim together. I will say I am a new convert so I can't comment so much in the plugin infrastructure but raw coding is really good and it's very configurable like emacs but without all of emacs overhead

did you have experience beforehand in using emacs? I've been using spacemacs for a couple of weeks, but I'm having trouble getting past the most basic usage, and partially it's because I feel like I don't have much experience with emacs.

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#119

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

therealmarv wrote: post #116
general_ai wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer console in general, for everything. I've been doing this for 20+ years, and you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Console for everything is the same like saying I never touch console, only GUI. There is a usecase for everything... I also want to see how you manage a bigger Java project from console with your 20+ years of expertise.

What about Java development necessitates a GUI?

I've never found I needed to use a GUI for developing software, outside of a browser.

Re: Using Vim as a Python IDE

#120

Post by general_ai »

oblio wrote: post #58
general_ai wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, you only need to configure Vim once, and then use your version controlled config everywhere for 10 years, very gradually improving it. I doubt VSCode will even exist in 10 years.

Are any of your plugins from 10 years ago still around? You can't compare naked Vim with VSCode. Also, Visual Studio has been around since 1997 and there's no reason to assume, out of hand, that VSCode won't last as long, being both popular and Open Source. I'm a Vim user, but cut the FUD.

I'm pretty sure they'll still be around. They're all open source.
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