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An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

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Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#41

Post by zoner »

owlninja wrote: post #34
gurgus wrote: post #11

That classic "well, nobody else has had a problem, so you must be the problem" response. I remember at one of my first jobs, myself and another programmer were working on a side project (outside of work hours, not using company resources in any way) that were considering monetising. Our contracts stated that the company we worked for owned all of our code produced in and out of working hours. We got to the business e…

Is this common in contracts??

I have it too. It would have been impossible to change, I was given a template contract and I do have side projects outside of my work. On the day I leave the job because my side project is making enough money, I would not be very nervous about it. How would they know?

I also have something like "should not work in similar area within The UK". Again, how would they know? This conflicts with data protection act, therefore invalid.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#42

Post by ekidd »

I've worked as a consultant for years. I occasionally employ a lawyer to review contracts with my clients.

As a general rule of thumb, I'll only work for a client under one of three circumstances:

1. The client's standard contract is reasonable. This is rare.

2. The client's standard contract is unreasonable, but they're willing to cross-out or rewrite the objectionable bits before signing. This is very common.

3. It's worth everybody's time and money to get our respective lawyers involved. Hint: This will cost at least $1000 for each side, assuming 3 hours of legal time at roughly $300/hour.

This sort of email thread is one of several reasons I wouldn't touch a site like Gigster with a 10-foot pole. If I can't renegotiate an unreasonable contract, I'm not a respected consultant, I'm probably an interchangeable body.[1] If you can't afford three hours of your lawyer's time, you can't afford me.

The other reason why I wouldn't touch a site like Gigster is that those sites almost always turn into a race to the bottom for low-value jobs for the most difficult clients. It's OK to do a couple of those jobs when you're starting out—but once you've done real projects, your time is better spent networking to find new contacts.

[1] I might make exceptions for very large and established organizations, for the right project and budget.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#43

Post by bluetwo »

gurgus wrote: post #11

That classic "well, nobody else has had a problem, so you must be the problem" response. I remember at one of my first jobs, myself and another programmer were working on a side project (outside of work hours, not using company resources in any way) that were considering monetising. Our contracts stated that the company we worked for owned all of our code produced in and out of working hours. We got to the business e…

There is a concept in law that it is the responsibility of the party making the contract to be specific.

For instance, if I hire you to paint my barn red and specify the shade of red, it had better be that red or you failed to meet the terms of the contract.

On the other hand, if I simply specify "red" then any shade of red would fulfill the contract. The lack of detail was my fault.

Depending on how specific they were, you may have been able to do it. Or, you could have sent them a letter telling them your intentions and let them either loop in the lawyer, or, at their risk, ignore the issue.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#44

Post by sanderjd »

TamDenholm wrote: post #32

I do contract work a lot in the UK through recruitment agencies. I very often provide feedback like this, especially when i'm asked to opt-out of the agency regulations. I never opt out, every single time i get the a response along the lines of "In my 20+ years of recruiting we've never had any problems with the contractor not opting out of the agency regulations, you're the first person to ever do that. Can i ask wh…

My question is: Does this ever actually result in them amending the contract? If not, do you then refuse to sign (as I suppose OP did in the gigster case)? If so, what happens if you discover that everyone's contracts are similarly problematic?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#45

Post by dajohnson89 »

theli0nheart wrote: post #33
dqv wrote: post #24

I'm not trying to defend gigster (broad indemnification clauses are bad news), but if someone framed those questions to me that way, I would also be hesitant to respond to them. It raises the "I'm going to be a handful" alarm. So, I understand why they were hesitant to respond and didn't want to comment on it.

I don't agree in the slightest. If anything, developers who ask questions are the ones you want most . One of the worst traits in a developer is the tendency to say yes to everything.

Yeah, but there are thousands of devs who say yes to gigster. That's enough to make money.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#46

Post by uiri »

gurgus wrote: post #11

That classic "well, nobody else has had a problem, so you must be the problem" response. I remember at one of my first jobs, myself and another programmer were working on a side project (outside of work hours, not using company resources in any way) that were considering monetising. Our contracts stated that the company we worked for owned all of our code produced in and out of working hours. We got to the business e…

Why not draft up something to give to the company disclaiming all rights to your work? If lawyers are too expensive for the company, I'm sure they'll sign it right away! I'm guessing the HR person is just incompetent and the issue should be escalated.

What exactly does a company think is going to be the outcome of saying "Oh, BTW, we might sue you for this, we might not and we're not going to give you a straight answer one way or the other" to one of their employees?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#47

Post by paulgb »

knorker wrote: post #14
therealmarv wrote: post #6

I recently learned from a github discussion that if you work for Amazon, Google etc. you are also not allowed to work on any open source projects, even on your free time without their permission.

It's true. Because with tens of thousands of employed engineers sometimes employees actually go "hey, I can improve this open source ad network search engine whose mission statement is to take business from google", and that is why they can't have nice things without getting a quick approval first.

The "quick approval" iirc involves emailing a VCS diff for every pull request for manual inspection. Google is a great employer but this is something I don't miss.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#48

Post by y7 »

owlninja wrote: post #34
gurgus wrote: post #11

That classic "well, nobody else has had a problem, so you must be the problem" response. I remember at one of my first jobs, myself and another programmer were working on a side project (outside of work hours, not using company resources in any way) that were considering monetising. Our contracts stated that the company we worked for owned all of our code produced in and out of working hours. We got to the business e…

Is this common in contracts??

Yes. Usually, I manage to get out of it (simply by asking and explaining).

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#49

Post by shshhdhs »

zoner wrote: post #41
owlninja wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this common in contracts??

I have it too. It would have been impossible to change, I was given a template contract and I do have side projects outside of my work. On the day I leave the job because my side project is making enough money, I would not be very nervous about it. How would they know? I also have something like "should not work in similar area within The UK". Again, how would they know? This conflicts with data protection act, there…

Wouldn't they be able to find that out from LinkedIn or social, for perhaps the majority of tech people? Not saying that you use social media, but it's possible they find out.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#50

Post by ncallaway »

StavrosK wrote: post #39

My standard reply to "oh we've never asked for someone's IP even though it's in the contract" is "great, then you won't mind me taking that term out, since you weren't using it anyway". Remember, if it's in the contract, it's what's happening. Let no amount of promises persuade you.

This is a great response to almost any: "Oh, that's never come up, it's just in the contract" argument.
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