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Make America Hate Again

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Re: Make America Hate Again

#361

Post by noselasd »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #184
_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. I totally disagree. How else do you want to describe the contents (and spirit) of this executive order? I think getting into mealy mouthed wiesel words and euphemisms for something that's clearly hateful and bigote…

>How else do you want to describe the contents (and spirit) of this executive order?

You could apply the Occam's razor, and describe them by the reasoning given by the administration - as an attempt to limit terrorists entering the US by limiting access to people from countries known to produce terrorists.

You might ofcourse disagree with the usefulness and means of these executive orders, but it doesn't mean they are meant as hateful or racist.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#362

Post by artmageddon »

jazzyk wrote: post #312
elechi wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know that Obama de facto stopped - or at least severely limited - Iraqi immigration for 6 months in 2011. There was no outright ban, but the flow of Iraqis slowed significantly. The comparison barely pasts muster when you consider the circumstances. First of all, Obama's 'ban' was based on an intelligence report that stated that terrorist had already gotten into the US through the immigration program, and wante…

US Green card holders are NOT affected by this. This was either mis-communicated, or a mistake (that should have never been made). I don't see it as anti-Muslim decision, 87% of the world's Muslim population are not affected. I see it as anti-terrorism decision, targeted at the top 7 most terrorist-ridden countries in the world [1]. Yes, it sucks for law-abiding citizens of these countries who would like to visit the…

> Yes, it sucks for law-abiding citizens of these countries who would like to visit the US in the next 120 days. But it is only temporary.

This assumes that the other countries will comply with the administrations requests for information on the individuals, otherwise it will be extended indefinitely. Iran doesn't have a US embassy and they don't officially have relations with the US, you think they're going to suddenly start handing over information to the US? If anything, this gives them more reason to say, "See how the US is treating us like shit?" which further stirs up anti-US sentiment among them.

Also, yes, green card holders ARE affected by this. My wife won't be able to leave the country without fear of being denied entry upon her return despite her being a valid green card holder.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#363

Post by mst »

mjmsmith wrote: post #268
mst wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that the Obama administration set up their list of countries with terrorist activities based on the business interests of somebody who wasn't even running for office yet? This seems strange to me.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-o...

I never said what they're doing was similar. I was merely pointing out that the list of countries they're doing the new, non-similar, horrible things to, was inherited from the previous administration.

Hence your "nations without Trump hotels" comment seemed strange to me.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#364

Post by trav4225 »

_xhok wrote: post #2

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. These are labels. No one really knows what "hate" means anymore, but because people are emotional, they see the word, recall what they think of Trump, and think, "yeah, that's hateful!" This is a problem for two re…

Agreed. Words like "hate", "bigot", and "racist" have become little more than modern-day Newspeak. They are labels applied to people, not terms descriptive of them.

Personally, when I read words like bigot/racist/etc., I instantly associate it with myself and my demographic, as a label that names us, not as a descriptor. I know that I personally meet none of the classical definitions of those words, but I also recognize that, in modern parlance, I "am" those things.

It's pretty messed up.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#365

Post by marssaxman »

adam419 wrote: post #351
logandavis wrote: post #203

The reason this is more HN-relevant than your average article on pure American politics is the top comment. Someone suggested to a well-known VC that he could do something about the fact that software he invests in powers the comments on Breitbart, and he said "on it". Something like 5% of Breitbart visits currently come through Disqus. Removing Disqus integration from Breitbart would be a remarkable use of tech indu…

Correction: it would be a remarkable use of tech industry tools for political censorship . When the hell did people forget that free speech also includes the speech you vehemently disagree with, justifiably or not?

The right to free speech constrains only the government. As a private individual or corporation you remain free to censor anything within your power. If Disqus doesn't want to work with Breitbart, they have no obligation to continue working with Breitbart, whether that decision is based on politics or anything else.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#366

Post by tekknik »

artmageddon wrote: post #362
jazzyk wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US Green card holders are NOT affected by this. This was either mis-communicated, or a mistake (that should have never been made). I don't see it as anti-Muslim decision, 87% of the world's Muslim population are not affected. I see it as anti-terrorism decision, targeted at the top 7 most terrorist-ridden countries in the world [1]. Yes, it sucks for law-abiding citizens of these countries who would like to visit the…

> Yes, it sucks for law-abiding citizens of these countries who would like to visit the US in the next 120 days. But it is only temporary. This assumes that the other countries will comply with the administrations requests for information on the individuals, otherwise it will be extended indefinitely. Iran doesn't have a US embassy and they don't officially have relations with the US, you think they're going to sudde…

Another way to look at this is if you are from a country exporting large amounts of terrorists then nobody wants to play with you due to the whole guilt by association thing. Some modern examples are americans paying reparations for slaves, no american alive today had anything to do with that. I also remember walking through Nagasaki as an american, you talk about hate and I had nothing to do with the bomb.

So guilt by association is definitely real and is definitely used by various other groups and countries to enrich their lives.

As far as the green card goes, I know quite a few people over dramatizing the effects of Trumps legislation primarily due to their hatred for them. My wife is Mexican and has a green card. Just this past weekend she left the US for a short trip to MX, and is already back. Her parents, daily, drive to Mexico for their job and drive back to the US where they live. If your wife is finding it difficult to re-enter the country, then from my perspective at least, there may be other reasons.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#367

Post by _delirium »

tekknik wrote: post #366
artmageddon wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, it sucks for law-abiding citizens of these countries who would like to visit the US in the next 120 days. But it is only temporary. This assumes that the other countries will comply with the administrations requests for information on the individuals, otherwise it will be extended indefinitely. Iran doesn't have a US embassy and they don't officially have relations with the US, you think they're going to sudde…

Another way to look at this is if you are from a country exporting large amounts of terrorists then nobody wants to play with you due to the whole guilt by association thing. Some modern examples are americans paying reparations for slaves, no american alive today had anything to do with that. I also remember walking through Nagasaki as an american, you talk about hate and I had nothing to do with the bomb. So guilt…

Depends on where you were born. Mexican-Americans are less likely to be affected, because very few were born in these 7 countries (which are not close to Mexico). However, I'm Greek-American, and many of us are affected, because we or family members were born in one of these countries. Many Greek-Americans are in the U.S. precisely because we fled from the Middle East, as the Greek communities that used to exist in cities across the former Ottoman Empire, ranging from Alexandria to Damascus to Istanbul, were coming under attack and becoming untenable to maintain. If your Greek passport says place of birth "Damascus" on it, suddenly you now have problems, even if you have a green card, while previously this was never an issue. As a result, many Greek-Americans are not happy with this move, even those who are usually politically conservative.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#368

Post by CaptainZapp »

noselasd wrote: post #361
CaptainZapp wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with his stance on this, and I think Trump and his latest executive orders are awful, but I also think that at this point, "hatred," "bigotry," and "racism" should be excised from public discourse. I totally disagree. How else do you want to describe the contents (and spirit) of this executive order? I think getting into mealy mouthed wiesel words and euphemisms for something that's clearly hateful and bigote…

>How else do you want to describe the contents (and spirit) of this executive order? You could apply the Occam's razor, and describe them by the reasoning given by the administration - as an attempt to limit terrorists entering the US by limiting access to people from countries known to produce terrorists. You might ofcourse disagree with the usefulness and means of these executive orders, but it doesn't mean they ar…

You may have a point if this order is seen in isolation.

Put into context with the new administration and how they acted since the inauguration my application of Occam's razor would lead to the exact opposite conclusion of yours.

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