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The deep roots of modern resentment

economist.com

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Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#71

Post by etangent »

rdtsc wrote: post #44

Interestingly it was specifically leftist thinkers and personalities who have been against globalization as promoted by free-market capitalism. That might seems shocking in light of recent election rhetoric. https://chomsky.info/secrets03/ --- About half of what are called US exports to Mexico are intrafirm transfers of this sort. They don’t enter the Mexican market, and there’s no meaningful sense in which they’re e…

A possible semi-Marxian explanation is that what we call leftism has always consisted of two tendencies: a popular one and an elitist one. The alliance between the two is not natural per se but only held together while the elitist tendency did not have access to the capital. What happened during the late 20th and the early 21st century is that increased demand for intellectual labor due to informatization had given the elitist tendency access to capital, which then led to breaking apart of the old alliance.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#72

Post by sctb »

EekSnakePond wrote: post #9

Ladies and gentlemen: Exhibit A. I say (and deeply imply): > Make cheap brown people as expensive as Western natives And he says "That's a criticism, not a proposal" Supporters of Western liberalism LITERALLY cannot detect alternative proposals, even when you put it immediately in their face. Even when you spell it out to them. They're just too high on sacred cows and moral supremacy.

We detached this flagged subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13533019.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#73

Post by diego_moita »

As a Latin American this is very ironic and surprising.

Latin America is painfully emerging from an age of populism fed by resentment (e.g.: Kirchner in Argentina, PT/Lula in Brazil, Chavismo in Venezuela). The economic policies being proposed by Trump (protectionism, discretionary subsidies for corporations, big spending...) are precisely the main cause of our misery.

The fact that the developed world is flirting with the disaster we are trying to fix is astonishing.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#74

Post by dandare »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #38
dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

I strongly disagree. But I think i understand where you're coming from, because instead of 'alternatives' the answer is to stop doing many of our western liberal behaviors. The alternative to a campaign of drone warfare is to not do the campaign. The alternative to regime change and overthrow of democratically elected governments is to treat the nation as a sovereign nation, and not overthrow their government. The al…

You have actually illustrated 90% of the problem - none of the the above represents liberal behaviour but rather the very opposite. Liberal fight such behaviour, these things happen DESPITE OF liberalism. You have just validate my post.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#75

Post by Animats »

It's our fault, in tech. We've created a world where there's no good role for anyone with an IQ below 100. That's half the population.

This is a new thing in history. Prior to the Industrial Revolution, there were more smart people than jobs for them. Strength and robustness were more valued than brainpower. That lasted well into the 20th century.

The big change started during WWII. For the first time, war started to become more technical and bureaucratic than macho. There had always been some military heavy thinkers, but only a few were needed, at command and general staff level. In WWII, there were a lot more people turning knobs, reading dials, making calculations, and writing plans, and they were moving up in authority.

Post-WWII, there was enough work for everybody for a while. But automation and mechanization were starting to be widely deployed. A milestone was reached in 1974, when auto companies in Detroit started requiring a high school diploma for new hires. Until then, they'd hire anyone who could tighten a bolt, and paid well enough that employees could afford a house, car, and family.

1974 was the peak year for the American working class. It's been a slow downhill slide since then for people with high school diplomas and less.

This was all before computers were widely available. Computers accelerated this process, but more than that, they broadened it. Detroit was highly automated by the 1970s. Now almost every business can be. Businesses that couldn't keep up went under. The US is full of abandoned factories in small towns and cities.

This has taken away the support system which provided stability, and prosperity in the developed world. That's where Trump voters came from. The system betrayed them. Of course they're angry.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#77

Post by jorgescx »

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #57
the_duke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget that what we understand now as a liberal democracy with free press, rule of law and the right for everyone to vote is extremely young. Just look at the time when women were granted voting rights (1). The US, by some seen as the 'holy grail' of modern democracy, officially allowed women to vote in 1919 (ironically many of the Democratic party were opposed), had extensive voter supression such as li…

No one except Americans themselves see the USA as the holy grail of modern democracy. That honor would probably befall one of either the West European or Scandinavian countries.

Yup, Norway is on the top of 2016's democracy index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_in...

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#78

Post by ue_ »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #53
crdoconnor wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism's "discreditation" was the result of a decades long propaganda campaign and their descent into authoritarianism which isn't all that different to that which many capitalist countries went through (or some are currently going through). You hear plenty of "well, capitalism would work fine too if it were just implemented correctly". That's exactly as stupid.

First point, yes on propaganda, but the failure of the Soviet Union had more to do with the inherent limitations of central planning than Marxist communism. That doesn't mean communism is a broken ideology, but rather that by attempting to refine the designs of failed communist states risks going back on the same path, instead of envisioning a new model for a community-focused ideology (in a way different from capita…

There are various new approaches to central planning that may be of interest, such as those in Towards a New Socialism by W. Paul Cockshott. I don't think central planning is necessarily something bad, and there are certainly sufficient alternatives from both inside and outside Communism. Many Communists such as myself are not attached to one method or another.

The idea that some period of authoritarianism is required for Communism is quite a Leninist idea. Sometimes I feel as though Communism would work better as an ideal to strive toward, rather than necessarily something to be acheived. I don't know how others feel on this, though.

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#79

Post by TeMPOraL »

corysama wrote: post #59
dandare wrote: post #5

Sometimes I feel like the more has been achieved by western liberalism the more is it being criticized for not magically fixing everything there is to be fixed. Coincidentally those who criticize it never offer alternative realistic solutions.

There's a name for this which escapes me. It happens to individuals a lot. It goes like this: "In today's news, Person A has made a sizable, significant contribution of Something to help Subset B of The Overwhelming Problem . But, one has to ask: What about The Rest of The Overwhelming Problem ? Why doesn't Person A care about any of that!?" The issue is that you provided the media with a headline they need, but not…

It's Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics.

https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...

"The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics says that when you observe or interact with a problem in any way, you can be blamed for it. At the very least, you are to blame for not doing more. Even if you don’t make the problem worse, even if you make it slightly better, the ethical burden of the problem falls on you as soon as you observe it. In particular, if you interact with a problem and benefit from it, you are a complete monster."

Re: The deep roots of modern resentment

#80

Post by TeMPOraL »

bduerst wrote: post #69
nrclark wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what do you suppose are the long-term effects of raising minimum wage? If you were a landlord managing an apartment building, how much do you charge for a unit? If all of your tenants suddenly make twice as much money as they did, how long before you double their rent? If a McDonalds needs to pay all of its employees twice as much money, how long before they double their food prices to make up the d…

Coincidentally, housing prices (buy/rent) are income-elastic and one of the criticisms of a blanket UBI, not just minimum wage.

Did anyone compile a list of ways to handle this problem? I'm all for UBI, but this feels like a show-stopper, and I don't know of any workaround.
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