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Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

nytimes.com

101–110 of 185 posts

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#102
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the minority wants a Constitutionally limited government founded on equality replaced with a racist, religiously-biased authoritarianism, and manages to elect a government with that intent over the wishes of the majority, that doesn't make that governments steps to implement it's authoritarianism any less of a crisis.

> minority The Republicans have a majority in the House, in the Senate, and they have the President. Is the American voting system so defective that a minority can achieve all that?

Gerrymandering has helped. Our democracy is not a simple matter of "candidate with the most votes wins".

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that Republicans are a numeric minority, because all the densely populated cities are Democratic and thus the population majority of America is Democratic. However the US isn't a population based democracy, so Republicans hold all majority power in all the branches of government because they have the widest geographical coverage of any political party. Is this good or bad? Well.... hypothetical question.…

> the US isn't a population based democracy Incorrect. Population corresponds to representation at national and state levels. This is enforced with a Constitutional base. "One person, one vote" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims

> "One person, one vote"

So how come Trump's President?

(It's because "one person" gets "one vote" for an elector. But some people get more electors than others, and electors vote for the President, not individual voters.)

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#104
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's a special administrative region with contractually guaranteed freedom to run its own affairs in all aspects (law, immigration, currency, economic policy, etc. etc) except for defence and foreign affairs.

This arrest is seen as necessary for 'national security', thus it would be arguable that Hong Kong has no standing here to complain. Even without that excuse, if you break a law in one country and flee to 'another state', you can still be arrested and remanded into custody of the country that you fled. The US for example has sent the FBI to foreign nations to arrest foreign nationals and return them to the US for tri…

Yes. You'd have to obtain that backing first, and it is not clear whether that has happened here.

Just going in (like the Mossad in Argentina for Eichmann) is not legal (even if it might be morally justified).

National security is a bit tricky, because the HK Basic Law allows for exceptions there, I think - but has that seriously been invoked?

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#105
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the issue is not so much that particular guy. The issue is the rule of law. No one in Hong Kong should be apprehended by Chinese police. If Colombian police came to Miami to snatch some drug lord, you'd object presumably, no matter your sympathy for the criminal.

US/CIA does "extraordinary rendition" all the time and sends missiles into sovereign states via drone daily. Whether or not one objects doesn't matter if there is no way to deter the behavior. If China sees no consequences China will do as China pleases. Law is irrelevant. I agree that I don't like seeing China wandering into Hong Kong, but the way China acts, the "one country, two systems" thing really is in name on…

Agreed on your cynical description of realpolitik on the ground. But it's not a good thing, and the cases ought to be investigated, and if it turns out that it was unlawful, HK and Britain (as contracting party in the treaty giving rise to the SAR) and the world ought to object.

China will subsume HK by 2047 at the latest - let's hope it will not be earlier. As you highlight, the signs so far do not augur well.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#106
post #64

Mossad abducted Adolph Eichmann in Argentina and took him to Israel. US Navy Seals raided and killed Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. Indian army stormed across the LoC and destroyed terrorist camps in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Chinese police captured Xiao Jianhua in Hongkong and took him across the border. When are these actions justified? Only when someone is a killer or a torturer or a terrorist? Or are they okay in…

I don't have a good answer for where the line is, but at least in the cases of bin Laden and Kashmir, normal channels for arrest and extradition wouldn't have worked. I'm less sure about Eichmann, but according to Wikipedia, Argentina had a history of refusing to extradite Nazis. In this case, China shouldn't have had any trouble getting Hong Kong authorities to arrest and extradite this person, so it doesn't seem li…

> In this case, China shouldn't have had any trouble getting Hong Kong authorities to arrest and extradite this person, so it doesn't seem like the same thing.

Given the current political situation in Hong Kong, this may not be a valid assumption.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#107
post #71

From a sovereignty perspective, Hong Kong is part of China.

And from the perspective of legislative, judicial, and executive powers (incl. police work), it isn't.

Isn't that the difference between sovereignty and self-governance? HK is self-governing in a lot of ways, but it's not a sovereign state, so it exists at the mercy of China. I don't know to what degree HK's independence is guaranteed by international treaties vs. agreements that are purely internal to China. If there's no international agreement with entities outside of China to honor HK's independence, surely the Chinese government could overrule the local government when it sees fit (like the US Federal government taking precedence over state governments when there are conflicting laws and interests).

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#108
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the minority wants a Constitutionally limited government founded on equality replaced with a racist, religiously-biased authoritarianism, and manages to elect a government with that intent over the wishes of the majority, that doesn't make that governments steps to implement it's authoritarianism any less of a crisis.

> minority The Republicans have a majority in the House, in the Senate, and they have the President. Is the American voting system so defective that a minority can achieve all that?

Well yes, obviously, since that's what happened.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that it's an actual genuine effort, given that the publicity of the drive has damaged Chinese public confidence in their institutions of government (high profile corruption is often featured in the news) and because many of the people taken to court have been in Xi Jinpeng's own circle and have represented for him a loss of personal power in the party. I haven't read much about Xi's personal power grow…

I'm not trying to claim that I'm more well versed on the subject than you. Almost certainly the opposite! But I would like to push back a little on a couple of the points you made. > the publicity of the drive has damaged Chinese public confidence in their institutions of government If Mr. Xi's goal were to stay on past the customary 10-year term, wouldn't he need to discredit the current institutions of government a…

The quick response to these concerns is that they very highly speculative. They are the sort of thing that - like medieval models of the solar system - seem to predict the the movement of the planets, except that you keep needing to explain away all the inconsistencies and that there are much simpler explanations available, which don't suffer from the exhaustion of the requirement to constantly tweak and reinterpret.

If Xi Jinping were to try to purge the Chinese Government (a highly paranoid organization, with military, intelligence and national security communities that far outlast his particular inter-party alignment) that would be incredible, shocking and enormous news.

> If Mr. Xi's goal were to stay on past the customary 10-year term, wouldn't he need to discredit the current institutions of government and portray himself as the antidote?

Maybe? Generally, the party is the face (you used the word veneer) of the government and its institutions. Weakening public opinion of the party only makes sense if Xi Jinping were pushing to replace the party system with a cult of personality. In the mind of the Chinese, Xi merely runs the party, and any damaged public opinion about the party reflects directly on public opinion about how Jinping is running it.

The kind of steps to become a cult of personality necessary to replace the party system just aren't being seen. You aren't seeing the government under Jinping trying to mass mobilize a change of public opinion to value his leadership over and above the party system.

Rather than discredit the current institutions of government he'd need to purge the institutions and norms which facilitate the cap on leadership and the interior modes for leadership to be replaced, as well as top brass in the People's Army that would enforce that - while pushing for the citizens of China to support such a transition. I have yet to read anything that makes a case that that's happening (much less a compelling one).

> Just out of curiosity, have we seen any such documents or communications (on any subject) that weren't intended for public consumption? That seems like important context as to whether absence of evidence can realistically be considered evidence of absence.

Yup. Take "Document Number 9" or the leaks regarding Ling Jihua or the leaks from the public diplomacy and strategic communication (propaganda) centers in China or the so called "50 Cent Party" - their version of the US's "Global Engagement Center".

Documents are leaked in China the same as they are leaked anywhere else. In any case, I'm just suggesting the type of really strong evidence you'd want to be able to reference to support a really strong claim. Unfortunately not enough leaks from any government are available to always have a "smoking gun" (though incredibly in the case of Brazil we got them, not that it mattered). I agree with you that absence of a leaked smoking gun is not evidence that it doesn't exist. My point was that there's nothing even close - so either the conspiracy is incredibly underground, has thought 15 moves ahead, and is going to manage to capture a government with a billion people even without taking the steps you'd expect to see - or it's a rumor similar to those about President Trump's, President Obama's, and President Putin's ambitions to overthrow their governments that were/are popular during their respective eras.

Color me really skeptical. I'm willing to believe it though - I would just need to see the right set of circumstances or the right set of leaked documents for it to make enough sense. Overall I'm much more interested in current affairs, geopolitics, and the potential ouster of Najib Razak in Malaysia and the workings of the next China party congress than these kinds of highly speculative and underevidenced theories.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#110
I wonder, what would the world be like today if the UK had refused to give back Hong Kong? Or, they could have refused to switch recognition from ROC to PRC, and then handed Hong Kong to ROC instead?

The US and the UK basically gave the PRC everything they wanted in switching the UN's China seat from ROC to PRC. They could have driven a much harder bargain – e.g. have two Chinas in the UN, just like it has two Koreas and used to have two Vietnams, two Germanys, two Yemens, etc; then HK and Macau could have been given back to ROC instead of PRC. But the US and UK were so obsessed with using PRC to spite the Soviets, they weren't thinking about what it would mean 20, 30, 40 years later when the Soviet Union was defunct.

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