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Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

nytimes.com

61–70 of 185 posts

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#61

This appears to be an aspect of the anti-corruption drive that has been holding billionaires and politically connected people high up in the Chinese government to account of the law, with Xiao Jianhua caught in financial fraud. The controversy here isn't that China took Xiao Jianhua in to face the law, but that he was taken from Hong Kong, where an agreement with Britain gives its former colony de facto autonomy with…

> to account of the law

This is a fairly generous interpretation. The more realistic view is that this is part of an on-going purge of Xi Jinping's foes. I don't think history is going to see this as anything other and this kind of thing is fairly common in China. The strict "anti-corruption" legislation gives the PRC leadership quite the leeway to punish those who they deem their enemies. This is a typical ploy in autocratic regimes.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#62
post #10

How will Trudeau respond? Xiao Jianhua is a Canadian citizen, after all.

Given the cold shoulder he's given Taiwan's president, who is also the first female leader democratically elected in Asia, and how he barely responded to Wang Yi's belligerent behavior in Canada, I'd say Trudeau will do nothing.

When it comes to might vs right, Canada generally sides with might. To be honest, other than the US, the only country I can even imagine standing up to China for the well-being of a 3rd party is Japan.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#63

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/02/01/chinese-billionaire-ab... No-one knows why he's there. The issue is more with Chinese agents operating on Hong Kong soil. They shouldn't be.

From your link: "She then said Xiao had contacted her and did not want to exaggerate the incident, according to the report." I'm not sure the incident could be exaggerated, given China's propensity to execute those convicted of corruption/embezzlement. They kidnapped a billionaire in another country with the likely intent to kill him sooner or later.

Hong Kong is not a country. It is an autonomous territory. It has only a little higher legal status than someplace like Guam or Puerto Rico, and that tiny bit is only there because of the sufferance of the higher government.

Hong Kong does not have an army (even US states have their own militias). It does not defend its own borders. It does not negotiate its own diplomatic affairs.

However, HK is still subservient to its parent government in terms of legal matters. Taking a foreign national would be a political affair that Hong Kong has no actual right to adjudicate.

The only thing Hong Kong has is a separate legal system, immigration control, and its own delegates in international bodies like the WTO.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#64

Mossad abducted Adolph Eichmann in Argentina and took him to Israel. US Navy Seals raided and killed Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. Indian army stormed across the LoC and destroyed terrorist camps in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Chinese police captured Xiao Jianhua in Hongkong and took him across the border. When are these actions justified? Only when someone is a killer or a torturer or a terrorist? Or are they okay in…

I don't have a good answer for where the line is, but at least in the cases of bin Laden and Kashmir, normal channels for arrest and extradition wouldn't have worked. I'm less sure about Eichmann, but according to Wikipedia, Argentina had a history of refusing to extradite Nazis.

In this case, China shouldn't have had any trouble getting Hong Kong authorities to arrest and extradite this person, so it doesn't seem like the same thing.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#65

This appears to be an aspect of the anti-corruption drive that has been holding billionaires and politically connected people high up in the Chinese government to account of the law, with Xiao Jianhua caught in financial fraud. The controversy here isn't that China took Xiao Jianhua in to face the law, but that he was taken from Hong Kong, where an agreement with Britain gives its former colony de facto autonomy with…

It's not clear to me whether the anti-corruption drive arises out of a genuine antipathy towards corruption or as a means for Xi Jinping to consolidate personal power. This is especially hard because it seems likely that every Chinese bigwig is at least somewhat corrupt, and high-level Chinese power politics is opaque enough that it's not clear if only Xi's rivals are being targeted. I really don't know how to unpick…

It seems to me that it's an actual genuine effort, given that the publicity of the drive has damaged Chinese public confidence in their institutions of government (high profile corruption is often featured in the news) and because many of the people taken to court have been in Xi Jinpeng's own circle and have represented for him a loss of personal power in the party. I haven't read much about Xi's personal power growing all particularly much during the anti-corruption drive, and there is a legitimate question whether he will be revoted to lead the party during the congress next year (though it is expected to continue).

Definitely this angle on understanding the drive should not be ignored. An attempt to corroborate it - to unpick the knot - would require a great amount of study of the Chinese People's Party, of Xi Jinping's constituency, and both the consistency of and the timing of charges brought to bring in the high level fraud. Documents and communications from Jinping or his circle discussing "who to go after" would represent a smoking gun (of course we haven't even smelled anything like this).

I read an expose from Foreign Policy where they tried to build a case that Xi Jinping has been using it to consolidate power, but it was very clumsy and as its predictions and information came into question the investigative direction taken by the expose has been abandoned (as far as I can tell).

The way the anti-corruption drive has proceeded, as I understand, has been in tracking how government finances are being used and that the Chinese Government tends to find - using traditional accounting audits - rings of people who are enriching themselves using various schemes (though many times really obvious transfers into personal accounts). So far it has appeared that the anti-corruption effort has both been making an actual positive effect on government efficiency and that it has been primarily non-political and untargetted, focusing more on finding abuse of public funds than in chasing after any officials in particular.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#66
post #52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just going from this quote from the article. >who saw his abduction as a violation of the city state’s ability to run its own affairs, guaranteed by international treaty until 2047.

Exactly. It's a special administrative region with contractually guaranteed freedom to run its own affairs in all aspects (law, immigration, currency, economic policy, etc. etc) except for defence and foreign affairs.

This arrest is seen as necessary for 'national security', thus it would be arguable that Hong Kong has no standing here to complain.

Even without that excuse, if you break a law in one country and flee to 'another state', you can still be arrested and remanded into custody of the country that you fled.

The US for example has sent the FBI to foreign nations to arrest foreign nationals and return them to the US for trial----all with the backing of the allied government.

Is it fair to expect Hong Kong, which is a territory of China, to not permit China the same sort of action?

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#67

This appears to be an aspect of the anti-corruption drive that has been holding billionaires and politically connected people high up in the Chinese government to account of the law, with Xiao Jianhua caught in financial fraud. The controversy here isn't that China took Xiao Jianhua in to face the law, but that he was taken from Hong Kong, where an agreement with Britain gives its former colony de facto autonomy with…

> to account of the law This is a fairly generous interpretation. The more realistic view is that this is part of an on-going purge of Xi Jinping's foes. I don't think history is going to see this as anything other and this kind of thing is fairly common in China. The strict "anti-corruption" legislation gives the PRC leadership quite the leeway to punish those who they deem their enemies. This is a typical ploy in a…

To consolidate the similar threads of discussion, another comment mentioned this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13533864

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#68

Mossad abducted Adolph Eichmann in Argentina and took him to Israel. US Navy Seals raided and killed Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. Indian army stormed across the LoC and destroyed terrorist camps in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Chinese police captured Xiao Jianhua in Hongkong and took him across the border. When are these actions justified? Only when someone is a killer or a torturer or a terrorist? Or are they okay in…

These actions might be justified, but they're certainly illegal, and as such worthy of discussion.

Re: Billionaire Is Reported Seized from Hong Kong Hotel and Taken into China

#69
post #58

This appears to be an aspect of the anti-corruption drive that has been holding billionaires and politically connected people high up in the Chinese government to account of the law, with Xiao Jianhua caught in financial fraud. The controversy here isn't that China took Xiao Jianhua in to face the law, but that he was taken from Hong Kong, where an agreement with Britain gives its former colony de facto autonomy with…

The anti-corruption campaign is the official reasoning to clean up high positions of competing groups to the current leadership. Common practice when a new leader starts. Thus, if people think the reason is not yet known, then they are probably correct.

To consolidate the similar threads of discussion, another comment mentioned this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13533864
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