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Guided meditation for beginners

quietkit.com

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Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#111

Post by metaphorm »

E6300 wrote: post #110
metaphorm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so...why do you call it "supernatural" practice? if you admit that there are very real, empirically verifiable benefits and results, then doesn't that make it part of nature? where's the "super" coming from? you say "these beliefs are not scientifically proven, which is important for me". What constitutes scientific proof? what do you suppose ought to be proved, that isn't proved? You already admit that there are ver…

I assume that by "supernatural" and "these beliefs", the above poster is referring to the stuff about > People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it.

that's a remarkably similar idea to what Jung called the collective unconscious. is that also a "supernatural" theory? or just psychology?

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#112

Post by E6300 »

hsitz wrote: post #32

The recording seems okay, but I find it really odd that the scripted voice says "feel your chest rise on an in breath, and feel it fall back down on an out breath." Chest-breathing is something to be avoided, especially in mediation, as it creates tension. The proper method of breathing is diaphragm-based breathing, otherwise called belly-breathing. This is not a trivial issue for meditation, really strange that they…

What does it matter how you breathe while you meditate? It's not like you're doing aerobic exercise.

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#113

Post by E6300 »

metaphorm wrote: post #111
E6300 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that by "supernatural" and "these beliefs", the above poster is referring to the stuff about > People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it.

that's a remarkably similar idea to what Jung called the collective unconscious. is that also a "supernatural" theory? or just psychology?

It depends. Does Jung's idea depend on mind reading? If so, then yes, it would be supernatural.

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#114

Post by hsitz »

kranner wrote: post #45
hsitz wrote: post #32

The recording seems okay, but I find it really odd that the scripted voice says "feel your chest rise on an in breath, and feel it fall back down on an out breath." Chest-breathing is something to be avoided, especially in mediation, as it creates tension. The proper method of breathing is diaphragm-based breathing, otherwise called belly-breathing. This is not a trivial issue for meditation, really strange that they…

Even with diaphragmatic breathing, your chest moves eventually as your lungs fill with air. I don't think these specific instructions promote controlling your breath by intentionally inhaling into your chest; they seem pretty passive.

Yes, the chest will move very slightly in deep belly breathing. But no, this is not a trivial thing, the focus in breathing should be on the abdomen/belly, which is your center; not the chest, which is a source of tension, and especially full of tension if you're breathing up "into" your chest.

Again, this is not a trivial thing, and you can easily check good sources on breathing (e.g., for meditation, singing, running) that will describe how belly breathing works. Chest breathing is actually not proper breathing in any circumstance; it doesn't use the diaphragm (the muscle designed for breathing purposes); it creates tension and doesn't allow breathing in as much air as belly-breathing; it's something we develop in our too-fast, too-stressful, too-nervous society.

These are just two top results that turned up in search for 'chest breathing' and meditation, you could find many, many more:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-dep...

https://yogainternational.com/article/view/diaphragmatic-bre...

https://www.blinn.edu/counseling/Relaxation-Techniques.pdf

As a related note, breathing is of paramount importance in singing, which like meditation requires proper relaxation and deep breathing. Learning to how to belly breathe and get rid of bad habit of chest-breathing is one of the first things you'll learn from any singing instructor.

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#115

Post by hsitz »

tombh wrote: post #71
hsitz wrote: post #32

The recording seems okay, but I find it really odd that the scripted voice says "feel your chest rise on an in breath, and feel it fall back down on an out breath." Chest-breathing is something to be avoided, especially in mediation, as it creates tension. The proper method of breathing is diaphragm-based breathing, otherwise called belly-breathing. This is not a trivial issue for meditation, really strange that they…

I think "proper" is a bit strong. Sure there are some religious systems that prescribe breathing methods, but from my understanding of mindfulness, the entire point is the quality of awareness, not the quality of your breathing.

I don't think it's too strong. Meditation is a wholistic activity, if anything is. It involves putting your entire body in a relaxed state and mind being aware. With bad quality of breathing, which is what you get from "chest-breathing" it is impossible to properly relax. Here's what the mayo clinic says about breathing in meditation:

"Relaxed breathing. This technique involves deep, even-paced breathing using the diaphragm muscle to expand your lungs. The purpose is to slow your breathing, take in more oxygen, and reduce the use of shoulder, neck and upper chest muscles while breathing so that you breathe more efficiently."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/meditation/in-dep...

I would challenge someone to find any (good) resource on meditation that recommends chest breathing. I'm sure there are resources out there that recommend chest breathing for meditation, but they are either (1) uninformed or simply not carefully edited, as in website we're discussing in this thread, or (2) it's something way different from the normal, garden variety, meditation that beginners should be doing (which website in our discussion is not).

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#116

Post by dmos62 »

nonsince wrote: post #62
Cozumel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you've been doing it for a while your mind will be blank all the time, which sounds kind of bad but it's actually great, but the interesting thing is once you can control your own thoughts you'll start to realise that not all of them are yours. People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it. You'll also be able to project them i.e influence people. Those pow…

I have lots of respect for spiritual people and adherents to both religious and non-religious supernatural practices, but I can't pretend that the association with supernatural beliefs didn't put me off getting into meditation and yoga for a long time, despite the very real empirical benefits. I understand that for you these beliefs (which, whether they are true or not, are not scientifically proven, which is importa…

To quote a renown yogi, "mysticism starts where mastery ends."

Apart from calmness and concentration, a significant benefit provided by such practices is emotion control, meaning you can choose the emotion you want to experience. Not only stimulus and reaction decouple, but you conciously produce stimulus, and choose reactions to foreign stimuli. This concept of real choice is hard to imagine for those who haven't experienced it.

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#117

Post by hsitz »

E6300 wrote: post #112
hsitz wrote: post #32

The recording seems okay, but I find it really odd that the scripted voice says "feel your chest rise on an in breath, and feel it fall back down on an out breath." Chest-breathing is something to be avoided, especially in mediation, as it creates tension. The proper method of breathing is diaphragm-based breathing, otherwise called belly-breathing. This is not a trivial issue for meditation, really strange that they…

What does it matter how you breathe while you meditate? It's not like you're doing aerobic exercise.

Breathing for meditation is about relaxation. Proper, relaxed breathing, in general, requires breathing using the diaphragm, directing air downward into your belly, not upward into chest. The vast majority of people are unaware of the proper way to breathe, which is one reason it should be one of the first things discussed when learning meditation.

"Although there is a certain logic to breathing with the chest muscles—that is where the lungs are, after all—it is not helpful to use these muscles as the primary tool for everyday breathing. Breathing primarily with the chest muscles makes breathing too labored. The effect is to arouse the sympathetic nervous system and to maintain levels of tension that sap energy and dramatically increase your susceptibility to emotional disturbances. Overusing the chest muscles for breathing is a subtle but major cause of physical and emotional distress."

https://yogainternational.com/article/view/diaphragmatic-bre...

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#118

Post by E6300 »

hsitz wrote: post #117
E6300 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it matter how you breathe while you meditate? It's not like you're doing aerobic exercise.

Breathing for meditation is about relaxation. Proper, relaxed breathing, in general, requires breathing using the diaphragm, directing air downward into your belly, not upward into chest. The vast majority of people are unaware of the proper way to breathe, which is one reason it should be one of the first things discussed when learning meditation. "Although there is a certain logic to breathing with the chest muscle…

Wouldn't the most relaxed form of breathing be whatever it is you do automatically? It seems weird to me that the autonomic nervous system would prefer to use a suboptimal muscle group. Furthermore, I find that when I'm exercising I need to force myself to use my diaphragm because of the effort it takes to move my viscera out of the way.

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#119

Post by Anthony-G »

E6300 wrote: post #110
metaphorm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so...why do you call it "supernatural" practice? if you admit that there are very real, empirically verifiable benefits and results, then doesn't that make it part of nature? where's the "super" coming from? you say "these beliefs are not scientifically proven, which is important for me". What constitutes scientific proof? what do you suppose ought to be proved, that isn't proved? You already admit that there are ver…

I assume that by "supernatural" and "these beliefs", the above poster is referring to the stuff about > People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it.

> People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it.

I interpreted that sentence as stating that people absorb thoughts and ideas via communication with other people expressing their views. The process of adopting an idea can often be a subconscious one. On more than one occasion, I’ve had friends impart to me some useful piece of knowledge, an interesting piece of trivia or some observation about the world, only for me to point out to them that it was me that shared those thoughts with them in the first place.

It’s useful to understand the source of my thoughts but for my own part, if my memory works at all, it’s doing well to retain thoughts, knowledge or ideas. I’m doing very well if I can also remember the source of the thought. My interpretation of the quoted sentence was that meditation would help one achieve that awareness.

Re: Guided meditation for beginners

#120

Post by E6300 »

Anthony-G wrote: post #119
E6300 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that by "supernatural" and "these beliefs", the above poster is referring to the stuff about > People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it.

> People are like radios and broadcast their thoughts, and you'll be picking them up without knowing it. I interpreted that sentence as stating that people absorb thoughts and ideas via communication with other people expressing their views. The process of adopting an idea can often be a subconscious one. On more than one occasion, I’ve had friends impart to me some useful piece of knowledge, an interesting piece of…

I'm sorry, but your interpretation is simply wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

> Siddhis are spiritual, paranormal, supernatural, or otherwise magical powers, abilities, and attainments that are the products of spiritual advancement through sādhanās such as meditation and yoga.

Incidentally, these are some siddhis mentioned in that article:

* Reducing one's body to the size of an atom

* Expanding one's body to an infinitely large size

* Becoming infinitely heavy

* Becoming almost weightless

* Hhaving unrestricted access to all places

* Realizing whatever one desires

* Possessing absolute lordship

* The power to subjugate all

* Knowing the past, present and future

* Tolerance of heat, cold and other dualities

* Knowing the minds of others and so on

* Checking the influence of fire, sun, water, poison, and so on

* Remaining unconquered by others

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