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CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

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Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#51

Post by amiga-workbench »

lomnakkus wrote: post #40
mhd wrote: post #19

If we all had something like Display Postscript, this layout thingamajig would be delegated to libraries, and we wouldn't have to ask the browser deities to bestow new gifts upon us. Good adaptive layout would be closer to a new version of jquery and less Windows XP Service Pack 51.0.2b. (We also would have more sites that looked liked late 90s Flash, but then again, we're moving that direction anyway, just with more…

While that would probably work fine for display and layout, but it doesn't work so well with the semantic document model that the web is built on. For example accessibility would suffer greatly unless every "jquery" (using your analogy) out there were to implement its own accessibility. (That's not to say things are absolutely peachy wrt. accessibility these days, but they'd get a lot worse if everybody had to implem…

I don't know if developers even care about semantic markup anymore, just have your 5 meg of JavaScript squirt out a bundle of divs and to hell with accessibility.

Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#52

Post by PeterisP »

robin_reala wrote: post #41
Pyxl101 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would there be a benefit to changing from to something else, if works just fine for the purpose? If it ain't broke, right?

It is broken. Every single comment is announced (in Voiceover at least) with “Row x of y. Column 1 of 1”. With proper markup you could either avoid that entirely, or announce a correct relationship with ARIA attributes.

Isn't this more of a sign that Voiceover is broken, as even a "true" single column table should not be read that way?

Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#53

Post by aplummer »

DavidSJ wrote: post #43
orbat wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, exactly, is the problem with the tag in the first place? Been a long, long time since I last touched HTML

There's no problem. But sometime around 2003 it became trendy to do all layout in CSS, even when a table or a tag would do just fine.

No there is, try using a screen reader, it reads out the header in front of every cell, its really hard to understand vs a semantic document with css styling for people not living with disability.

Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#54

Post by mattmanser »

orbat wrote: post #39
supersan wrote: post #32

Makes you wonder why HN won't budge with those tags in the source code. One day I hope to see "Table layouts are back with tags" and the HN programmers would have saved themselves so much work.

What, exactly, is the problem with the tag in the first place? Been a long, long time since I last touched HTML
That's the problem.

This argument was over a decade ago and it's because it's a nightmare to work in tag soup.

I still have to deal with tables for layout on mail templates, bloody Outlook, and that extra 2 layers of tag nesting you have to do on every level quickly turns the code into an incomprehensible mess, even with careful indentation.

And if you're not very careful with indentation it turns into an utter nightmare.

Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#56

Post by Fifer82 »

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #30

Yes, please. Putting 'styles' in charge of layout was always madness. Every time I hit the wrong link because the browser engine finally figured out it should move things around one more time just that millisecond, my soul gets blackened by the wish to strangle someone.

I wonder if there is a name for this rage. I did what you did but I did it twice in a row and one of them was an ad that crashed safari. If someone had teleported me into the dev's office during that 10 second period, it would have been an absolute slaughter house.

Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#58

Post by mhd »

ebalit wrote: post #38
mhd wrote: post #19

If we all had something like Display Postscript, this layout thingamajig would be delegated to libraries, and we wouldn't have to ask the browser deities to bestow new gifts upon us. Good adaptive layout would be closer to a new version of jquery and less Windows XP Service Pack 51.0.2b. (We also would have more sites that looked liked late 90s Flash, but then again, we're moving that direction anyway, just with more…

What would be the advantage over SVG ?

PostScript is a programming language.

Re: CSS Grid – Table layout is back. Be there and be square

#60

Post by einr »

mattmanser wrote: post #54
orbat wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, exactly, is the problem with the tag in the first place? Been a long, long time since I last touched HTML

That's the problem. This argument was over a decade ago and it's because it's a nightmare to work in tag soup. I still have to deal with tables for layout on mail templates, bloody Outlook, and that extra 2 layers of tag nesting you have to do on every level quickly turns the code into an incomprehensible mess, even with careful indentation. And if you're not very careful with indentation it turns into an utter night…

That's a problem to be sure, but sometimes I wonder if this is much better:
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