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Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

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Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#101

Post by matt4077 »

gonzo41 wrote: post #14
ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

You'll be happy to know there are ongoing fraud investigations in Germany against several engineers and managers of VW and their contractors. An investigation into the CEO at the time of the cheating (Winterkorn) was launched very recently when they got testimony that he was informed of the cheating a few month before it was publicised.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#102

Post by matt4077 »

kartan wrote: post #71
Gustomaximus wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how to take "The emissions scandal should have ended VW" but assuming you mean financially, I cant agree. As a listed company you would be taking away many peoples jobs and savings who are innocent parties in this. The bigger issue is it seems there has been one executive scapegoat and no real punishment for the multitude of people involved. While a company fine is good, if we were to gaol and heavily fi…

> As a listed company you would be taking away many peoples jobs and savings who are innocent parties in this. 1. Nationalize part of the company hurting investors. 2. Auction the shares to the market 3. Profit$ This way a "too big to fail" company can continue running its business as usual while punishing the value of the company. That doesn't means that personal responsibilities are forgiven, any one that breaks th…

That is fundamentally not different from a fine, which is ultimately also paid completely by the investors.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#104

Post by matt4077 »

gonzo41 wrote: post #14
ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

You missed the most important aspect of that scene in fight club: "If the profits are larger than the costs of expected settlements and fines". That means you just need to either the chances of being caught or the fines – preferably the first because low chances of being caught just invite delusional thinking ("I'm smarter than others") and people are pretty bad with evaluating probabilities not close to 0 or 1.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#105

Post by bigger_cheese »

mulmen wrote: post #64
wyager wrote: post #59

I'm well over 200,000 miles on my '98 Land Cruiser and looking for a replacement, but frankly, Toyota's current offerings aren't looking too hot... The 200 series land cruiser is trending towards a suburb-mobile and is basically unsuited for offroad use, whereas the 70-, 80- and 100-series are awesome for offroading, even in stock off-the-lot configuration. The 4Runner is a decent offroad vehicle, but doesn't have th…

I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail price! T…

I have a 2011 Toyota Yaris I've been pretty happy with it. I went from a four door 1.6L engine car (2002 Kia Rio) to the three door 1.4L Yaris. At the time I purchased the Yaris I was 50/50 toss between it and a Mazda 3. I ended up getting offered a good deal of the Toyota so went with it, no regrets since then.

I'm single and live in the city so fuel economy and ease of parking trumps everything else for me.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#106

Post by dgudkov »

pshposh wrote: post #91
mulmen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail price! T…

What about the Toyota 86? 2-door, rear-wheel drive. Other than that I agree with you for the most part. edit: http://www.toyota.com/86/

It's not a real Toyota - it was designed and built by Subaru.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#107

Post by shard972 »

ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

Asking for forgiveness instead of permission is something I tell work colleagues.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#108

Post by chrisper »

pixelbill wrote: post #78
NamTaf wrote: post #44

For all the criticism about their cheating of metrics and rules, I recently hired a VW Polo Diesel for a month to drive around Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and France and found it to be a comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent car. It handled doing 160 down the Autobahn quite comfortably without steering judder or anything I'd expected at higher speeds. It accelerated surprisingly well (not even consid…

No one is debating the sporty performance of your VW. You dismiss all criticisms of them immediately and go on to talk about your lovely driving experience, making it seem like you either work for VW or have a vested interest in them, so your opinion instantly counts as worthless in my book. If a person had done what VW did they would be in jail, but because we as a society have determined that rich people are much m…

> If a person had done what VW did they would be in jail

They might not be in jail, but they got charged:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/11/business/volkswagen-diese...

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#109

Post by bmmayer1 »

gonzo41 wrote: post #14
ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

Corporate personhood is a long standing legal principle stretching back at least 400 years to the first joint stock corporations. The creation of limited liability vehicles for investors to pool resources, govern large cooperatives of individuals, simplify complex transactions, and protect investments and intellectual property has led to unprecedented levels of wealth creation for nations and people, and is arguably the most consequential innovation of the last millennium.

Your issue with VW has nothing to do with corporate personhood, it has to do with a lack of criminal penalties for certain civil regulations. There are, of course, plenty of corporate crimes that do lead to jail time (though I hope you're joking about the guillotine). Call your representatives in congress and ask them to expand the criminal statutes. But don't pass this off on corporate personhood which has likely benefitted you and all of us far more than any perceived harm.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#110

Post by chrisper »

p0larboy wrote: post #66

I had a Volkswagen Scirocco. That car looks nice and had a reasonable price range. But that car was the stuff of nightmares. Just google "scirocco dsg gearbox problems". I simply cannot imagine why a huge car manufacturer could produce such a faulty car. Apparently, scirocco is not the only model to be affected by this.

> I simply cannot imagine why a huge car manufacturer could produce such a faulty car.

Sadly, American Car companies create lots of faulty cars as well. Not sure why.

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