Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#91

Post by pshposh » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:32 AM UTC

mulmen wrote: post #64

wyager wrote: post #59

I'm well over 200,000 miles on my '98 Land Cruiser and looking for a replacement, but frankly, Toyota's current offerings aren't looking too hot... The 200 series land cruiser is trending towards a suburb-mobile and is basically unsuited for offroad use, whereas the 70-, 80- and 100-series are awesome for offroading, even in stock off-the-lot configuration. The 4Runner is a decent offroad vehicle, but doesn't have th…

I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail price! T…

What about the Toyota 86? 2-door, rear-wheel drive. Other than that I agree with you for the most part.

edit: http://www.toyota.com/86/

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#92

Post by ransom1538 » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:33 AM UTC

TwoBit wrote: post #88

ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

How did Google, Amazon, and Facebook cheat, in your opinion?

Google: copyright infringement. [Crawling sites, taking data at will, then slapping ads on it, not paying the authors a portion of their ads] [4]. Tax evasion. [5--look for google]

Amazon: sales tax avoidance (entire reason they exist) [1] later, federal tax evasion, including the double irish. [7]. Pusher of fake goods. [8] Pusher of fake reviews. Pusher of Chinese goods causing destructive env. practices.

Facebook: selling personal information [2]. tax evasion (double irish) [3]. Enabled zynga (et al) to extort from children [6]

1. http://www.taxjusticeblog.org/archive/2016/11/at_amazoncom_s...

2. https://consumerist.com/2014/06/12/facebook-is-now-selling-y...

3. https://www.ft.com/content/ca64f938-5dc0-11e3-95bd-00144feab...

4. https://techcrunch.com/2009/02/11/google-book-settlement-sit...

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

6. https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/06/zynga-scamville-mark-pinku...

7. http://www.businessinsider.com/double-irish-other-corporate-...

8. http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/08/amazons-chinese-counterfeit-p...

I probably could type all night.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#93

Post by brohoolio » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:38 AM UTC

Something like half the sales are in China. They don't sell a diesel there. Across the rest of the world sales are way down.

They would be way ahead of Toyota if they didn't cheat.

The other thing to remember is that cars are engineered a few years out. It will be a while before they compromise quality to make up for the large fines.

Cheating doesn't mean you win.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#94

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC

Shinkei wrote: post #62

gonzo41 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

This is one area where you might admire Chinese government then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal#Cont... If you read the part that talks about criminal prosecutions, many top executives were put to death or received life imprisonment. It's up for debate whether this is 'good' or 'justice' because the economic causes that led to the problem are complex, but babies were literally being killed be…

They found scapegoats for sure, but not many are really confident the real crooks were caught, and more importantly, faith was never restored in the Chinese milk industry.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#95

Post by matt4077 » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:41 AM UTC

brohoolio wrote: post #93

Something like half the sales are in China. They don't sell a diesel there. Across the rest of the world sales are way down. They would be way ahead of Toyota if they didn't cheat. The other thing to remember is that cars are engineered a few years out. It will be a while before they compromise quality to make up for the large fines. Cheating doesn't mean you win.

> It will be a while before they compromise quality to make up for the large fines.

That's not how business works. Absent an existential threat, their calculus regarding the quality level required for optimising profit is not influenced by the fine.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#96

Post by krakensden » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:46 AM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #35

tikhonj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cheaper European brands like Skoda and SEAT also likely have significant volume. Skoda, for example, sold over a million vehicles—a non-trivial 10% of VW group's total. Audi sold something like 1.8M, probably with better margins than Skoda, so it's certainly a more important brand, but SEAT and Skoda aren't trivial either. Just in terms of car sales, SEAT + Skoda ≈ Audi.

Seat and skoda are only popular in handful of small European countries, vw is popular around the globe.

SEAT does pretty well in Mexico.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#97

Post by pixelbill » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:47 AM UTC

NamTaf wrote: post #87

pixelbill wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is debating the sporty performance of your VW. You dismiss all criticisms of them immediately and go on to talk about your lovely driving experience, making it seem like you either work for VW or have a vested interest in them, so your opinion instantly counts as worthless in my book. If a person had done what VW did they would be in jail, but because we as a society have determined that rich people are much m…

I wasn't dismissing the criticisms; in fact I tried to disclaim that. My point was that notwithstanding the valid criticisms, they appear to be producing cars that in my mind would appeal to consumers so it doesn't surprise me if they were seeing significant sales. Whether they're capable of doing so precisely because they violate those rules is beyond my knowledge. For the record, I absolutely do not work for VW or…

>>I wasn't dismissing the criticisms

What you did was the definition of dismissing the criticisms. You bring them up then immediately downplay the issue and change the topic to your "comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent" experience, in the same sentence! You end with a criticism of a competitor's car, and close with "I can only say good things about the VW Polo". Your entire post was filled with fluff words praising VW.

>>Whether they're capable of doing so precisely because they violate those rules is beyond my knowledge.

Really? You're not sure if cheating gives you an advantage? Come on now..

>>For the record, I absolutely do not work for VW or indeed in the automotive industry in any way, and I neither gain nor lose any value whatsoever if they flourish or go bankrupt.

Ever have someone give you a very suspicious argument and then have them say "Trust me."? I've never ever trusted a person that needs to tell me to trust them, which is basically what you are doing. Guess what? I don't believe anything you say, because of the way you say it.. incredibly suspiciously.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#98

Post by whyenot » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:48 AM UTC

gonzo41 wrote: post #14

ransom1538 wrote: post #5

One thing learned from: Volkswagen,airbnb,google,amazon,uber,facebook is to CHEAT. Illegal hotels, copyright infringement, skipping sales tax, fake cabs,profiting on personal data.. and now, illegal emission testing.

This is the logical conclusion when you allow corporations to be 'people' without the consequences of being a person. How do you send a company to jail? Its kinda of like that scene in fightclub where Edward Nortons character talks about the cost of doing a recall. The emissions scandal should have ended VW. Solution: Guillotine for corporate crime.

Sometimes I think there needs to be a corporate death penalty where a company that does something truly egregious is liquidated.

The problem, of course, is that would also mean putting a lot of people out of work and would also hurt many who may have not done anything wrong.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#99

Post by matt4077 » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:50 AM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #53

NamTaf wrote: post #44

For all the criticism about their cheating of metrics and rules, I recently hired a VW Polo Diesel for a month to drive around Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and France and found it to be a comfortable, performant, nimble and all-round decent car. It handled doing 160 down the Autobahn quite comfortably without steering judder or anything I'd expected at higher speeds. It accelerated surprisingly well (not even consid…

All that acceleration is enabled by it violating the environmental laws of every western country.

You won't get a VW that still uses the software this is about any more from a rental agency. Firstly, they were recalled. Secondly, rental agencies in Germany (and most countries at similar levels of development as far as I can tell) have about a 12-month turnover in their fleet.

Re: Volkswagen overtakes Toyota as the world's biggest carmaker

#100

Post by mulmen » Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 4:51 AM UTC

pshposh wrote: post #91

mulmen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed in Toyota's current offerings. Take a look at what is on the lot today and what was on the lot in 1997. 20 years ago you could pick up a world-class Supra or a proper Land Cruiser or a Tacoma or a Camry or Corolla that could practically be the last commuter car you ever need. All of them stubbornly reliable. many of the cars Toyota had on the lot in 1997 still sell for close to their retail price! T…

What about the Toyota 86? 2-door, rear-wheel drive. Other than that I agree with you for the most part. edit: http://www.toyota.com/86/

It's a Subaru Impreza with a different body. It's a nice car but it isn't a Toyota. They also tried to market it in the US as a Scion until that experiment also failed.