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Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

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Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#91

This article is about heavily fluorinated organic compounds -- molecules with a carbon skeleton and all or most of the hydrogen atoms replaced by fluorine. These are not the ionic fluorine compounds that protect teeth against decay (and that cause acute toxicity in case of over-consumption). Why are these compounds hazardous? - Harmful biological effects in the human body, like hormone-mimic activity. - Low molecular…

This is analogous to why scientists and policymakers focus so much on CO2 when worrying about global warming.

Other compounds, like water vapor or methane, trap more heat than CO2. But they leave the atmosphere much more quickly: water rains out after a week or two, and methane breaks down in about a decade. But CO2 persists for many decades, perhaps even longer depending on the state of the biosphere.

So despite that fact that CO2 is harmless to human health at atmospheric concentrations, and actually beneficial to plants and some animals, the systemic harm due to its longevity can be huge.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#92
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have they been following the story of Hoosick Falls, NY at all?

"The contamination of drinking water in Hoosick Falls is an example of the shortcomings of the UCMR3 program. As part of the UCMR program, all large public water supplies that serve over 10,000 residents, and a small percent of smaller public water supplies, are required to conduct water testing. Most smaller public water supplies and private wells are not required to conduct water testing as part of the UCMR program…

Excellent, thank you.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#93
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this stuff is considered 3000 times as bad as cyanide? That's rather disturbing.

The natural concentration of the weird high molecular weight fluorine compounds is exactly zero, whereas cyanide compounds are natural and show up in small amounts in many fruit seeds, a couple nuts, some root vegetables. Its not physically possible to eat enough apple seeds to get sick, but if you industrially concentrate cyanide by a factor of a hundred thousand or so because its so nifty at plating metals and stuf…

> likewise no human died of cyanide poisoning until the 1800s AFAIK

Cassava roots (tapioca) have been killing and otherwise causing problems for humans for millennia through cyanide poisoning. Bitter almonds have been causing trouble for almost as long.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#94
My father was a Ph.D. organic chemist who worked for DuPont at the Experimental Station in Wilmington, DE. We admired and even loved DuPont while I was growing up there in the 1950's and 60's (the "Better Living Through Chemistry" era).

Now I am learning the sad truth about DuPont (and many other industrial chemical manufacturers). Despite the many great achievements of their employees, DuPont was a diabolically evil company. The history of their GM partnership and their promotion of tetraethyl lead in gasoline alone is justification for this statement.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#95

This article is about heavily fluorinated organic compounds -- molecules with a carbon skeleton and all or most of the hydrogen atoms replaced by fluorine. These are not the ionic fluorine compounds that protect teeth against decay (and that cause acute toxicity in case of over-consumption). Why are these compounds hazardous? - Harmful biological effects in the human body, like hormone-mimic activity. - Low molecular…

The article doesn't mention whether or not these compounds are removed by using a filter (like a Brita filter). I know Brita filters don't remove fluoride normally, but these compounds sound organic, which activated carbon usually does remove. Any idea whether standard filters remove this?

There are no official treatment recommendations for PFNA, PFOA, PFOS that I know of but they can be treated with activated carbon, RO membranes or some combination. GAC seems to be pretty effective and you could feel pretty safe with a Brita filter, a multi-stage undersink system or a large whole house filter.

The issue with chemicals like these and treatment is that without extensive testing there isn't much information about breakthrough rate and contact time and the relationship, so repeated testing is really the only way to know when you need to change media.

Manufacture cartridge change recommendations generally are pegged to chlorine removal only, so a filter may deplete it's PFOA removal potential in a 1/10 the recommended change interval.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#96

This article is about heavily fluorinated organic compounds -- molecules with a carbon skeleton and all or most of the hydrogen atoms replaced by fluorine. These are not the ionic fluorine compounds that protect teeth against decay (and that cause acute toxicity in case of over-consumption). Why are these compounds hazardous? - Harmful biological effects in the human body, like hormone-mimic activity. - Low molecular…

The article doesn't mention whether or not these compounds are removed by using a filter (like a Brita filter). I know Brita filters don't remove fluoride normally, but these compounds sound organic, which activated carbon usually does remove. Any idea whether standard filters remove this?

Activated carbon can remove some, but not all [0].

> part from the commonly studied perfluoroocta noic acid (PFOA or C8) and perfluorooctane sulfonate (PFOS), eight additiona l PFASs were evaluated: perfl uorobutanoic acid (C4), perfluoro- pentanoic acid (C5), perfluorohexanoic acid (C6), perfluoroheptanoic acid (C7), perfluorononanoic acid (C9), perfluorodecanoic acid (C10), perfluorobutane sulfonate (PFBS), and perfluorohexane sulfonate (PFHS).

> Regardless of the test ed (S-)PAC, C4 removal was negligible, while PFOS removal was essentially complete. PFAS removal increased with increasing perfluorinated carbon chain length, and for a given perfluorinated carbon chain length, sulfonates were more adsorbable than carboxylat es.

tl;dr: long-chain PFAS are removed, while short-chain PFAS are hardly removed at all

[0] http://www.waterrf.org/ExecutiveSummaryLibrary/4344_ProjectS...

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#97

This article is about heavily fluorinated organic compounds -- molecules with a carbon skeleton and all or most of the hydrogen atoms replaced by fluorine. These are not the ionic fluorine compounds that protect teeth against decay (and that cause acute toxicity in case of over-consumption). Why are these compounds hazardous? - Harmful biological effects in the human body, like hormone-mimic activity. - Low molecular…

The article doesn't mention whether or not these compounds are removed by using a filter (like a Brita filter). I know Brita filters don't remove fluoride normally, but these compounds sound organic, which activated carbon usually does remove. Any idea whether standard filters remove this?

This EPA page seems to imply that activated carbon would help remove it:

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/drinking...

---------------- Can PFOA and/or PFOS be boiled out of my water?

No; PFOA and PFOS cannot be removed by heating or boiling water. However, there are steps you and your drinking water system can take to limit your exposure.In some cases, drinking water systems may be able to reduce concentrations of perfluoroalkyl substances, including PFOA and PFOS, by closing contaminated wells or changing rates of blending of water sources. Alternatively, public water systems can treat source water with activated carbon or high pressure membrane systems (e.g., reverse osmosis) to remove PFOA and PFOS from drinking water. These treatment systems are used by some public water systems today, but should be carefully designed and maintained to ensure that they are effective for treating PFOA and PFOS. In some communities, entities have provided bottled water to consumers while steps to reduce or remove PFOS or PFOA from drinking water or to establish a new water supply are completed.

Home drinking water treatment units are typically certified by independent third party organizations against ANSI (American National Standards Institute) standards to verify their contaminant removal claims. Some home filters remove impurities using activated carbon and reverse osmosis, which are the same technologies utilized by public water supply systems to remove PFOA and PFOS. However, there currently are no ANSI protocols for testing home treatment systems to verify that these devices effectively remove PFOA and PFOS or how frequently the filters should be changed in order to maintain removal efficiency. NSF International is currently developing such protocols.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EPA and other regulators have been hamstrung by republicans since their inception and then when they don't do everything perfectly republicans love to show how the EPA, SEC or whoever aren't doing their job. Republicans sabotage these regulators and don't provide adequate funding. It's sabotage. "The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." - P. J. O'Rou…

FYI, the EPA is comprised of 15000 employees, and its annual budet is $8.14B. That's $543K per head. A lot of money for sitting on their hands and making excuses that they're "hamstrung".

That is a poor metric. The EPA funds many pollution prevention and mitigation programs that far exceed the cost of staffing.

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#99
post #62
post #7

I work with one of the authors of the Hu et al. paper that this article is based on. I'm happy to relay any questions people have to her.

I have another request. (You didn't limit us to one) The article very carefully avoids discussing actual hazard level or a comparison, merely a measured number exceeded a beancounter's number. Its irresponsible to make policy decisions without knowing the actual risk level... so inform us? I realize its difficult to compare ochem toxicity between compounds, famously there are obscure reactions where nothing interesti…

I tried to find some data on that, but it appears that there is no data available showing definite health hazards of these compounds.

Getting such data can be difficult. Animal models can often be wrong: the toxicity may be specific to humans, or the damage may require exposure over time frames than the animals' life span, or it only manifests under rare circumstances (i. e. interactions with drugs).

The best data you can get may be from people who were exposed to the compounds unusually high degrees, usually because they worked with them. But that group of people may be too small, or not diverse enough (we've long avoided exposing pregnant women to industrial chemicals), or the nature of their work exposed them to different chemicals muddling any results.

You say "Its irresponsible to make policy decisions without knowing the actual risk level", but I'd say that you can't not make a decision: taking the view that a chemical is safe until proven otherwise is as much a decision as the opposite. The EU has started to assume new compounds to be dangerous until proven otherwise – I believe the US may still be doing the opposite.

Ethanol (i. e. alcohol) is also a particularly bad unit of measurement, considering its effects on human health are not just somewhat disputed, but apparently highly unusual. There is quite a lot of evidence for beneficial effects of alcohol, possibly even at rather high dosages (although the effects on cancer, which you mention specifically, are probably closer to a standard linear dose-response relationship,)

Re: Toxic fluorinated compounds found in drinking water of 33 states

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mouthwash seems like a better option than drinking fluoride to improve teeth.

You said 'seems', which seems to leave the topic open to discussion in your mind. (: What's the downside to adding appropriate amounts of fluoride to municipal water sources? EDIT: after I posted this, I did some quick Googling, and man this is an all over the map topic. There APPEARS to be reasonable evidence on both sides of the debate, but honestly, I'm not personally vested in this enough to dig any more.

Yea; that's pretty much where I lie too. I'm not skilled at picking apart this kind of evidence.
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