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Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

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Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#31
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a system in the scope of the audit, if you can demonstrate that the files coming in are checked for malware before they get on your critical systems, this is one example of a compensating control. Further, if you can demonstrate in auditable fashion that there are no browsers or other network connections or other typical vectors for infection, that can be a compensating control. [Edit] Or if you can demonstrate t…

So, in a typical SAAS cloud application environment, is ISO 27001 just off the table for anyone serious about security? As (in effect) the CSO for a bunch of decently-sized startups, I would have a hard time approving the deployment of any kind of antimalware tool, because the risk simply isn't worth the reward. Even when deployed on isolated systems and not every end system and server, they're still intrinsically da…

No, you just need to have some compensating control. For example: there is a very limited number of ways that I can get files to the ec2, I can audit how this happens and also there is no browser running there.

So to put it another way: can you set and enforce a policy as to how files get to your aws instance, set and enforce a policy as to how (that is with what programs) those files are accessed. And that there is a way to audit that such a policy is in place and enforced.

As an example Azure its own self is ISO 27001 (and a metric ton of other certs) and they don't run AV on their stuff. But you can be sure that they can tell you everything about each of the components that make up Azure itself up to the hypervisor level. I would presume that the same thing is true for AWS.

So now you put your stuff on top of this base service. If you can assure the auditors that you have somehow controlled that particular risk, then you won't need AV.

Also, of the 114 controls in ISO 27001, not all of the controls are relevant for the scope that you choose. You could say that "since we have total control of the character and nature files that land on each of our VMs, we don't need to have that control". Often you may need only 50 of the controls.

The thing about ISO 27001 is about understanding the risk that your systems in scope are subject to (e.g., loss of PCI-protected data, fire, downtime), building policies and procedures addressing those risks, and repeatedly auditing that those policies and procedures are in place and adjusting them when they are not.

Pro-Tip: don't take the approach of telling the auditors that AV is a fundamental risk. That conversation is not likely to be productive. Just demonstrate your control over the environment.

ISO 27001 is not that far removed from common-sense security.

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#32
post #22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is the reason I made the disclosure. Almost all of our work involves intercepting, modifying, and integrating third party applications with Windows when Windows doesn't provide APIs to do this.

So are you using undocumented windows APIs or hooks?

It depends of the work but for example we created APIs for applications that don't have APIs, reversing the code to expose an unexisting API.

You can check our open source software at https://github.com/nektra Deviare, Deviare2, and RemoteBridge are some of our engines.

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#33
post #19
post #2

We've been trying to fight a security auditor requirement to put antivirus on all of our amazon amis (including linux). It's insane that anyone thinks that improves security.

Agreed in a lot of cases. However there can be times (e.g. email attachments, file uploads) where it's a rather useful defense layer.

You don't need an integral scanner, you need a scanner that can look through any persisted user files. You can write triggers for Amazon Lambda that trigger scans when a file is dropped on S3, for example.

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#34
post #32
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you using undocumented windows APIs or hooks?

It depends of the work but for example we created APIs for applications that don't have APIs, reversing the code to expose an unexisting API. You can check our open source software at https://github.com/nektra Deviare, Deviare2, and RemoteBridge are some of our engines.

I apologize for asking a bit of a leading question. But I am concerned that changes to undocumented APIs in windows could lead to blue screens upon rollout of updates, no?

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#35
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends of the work but for example we created APIs for applications that don't have APIs, reversing the code to expose an unexisting API. You can check our open source software at https://github.com/nektra Deviare, Deviare2, and RemoteBridge are some of our engines.

I apologize for asking a bit of a leading question. But I am concerned that changes to undocumented APIs in windows could lead to blue screens upon rollout of updates, no?

Blue screens issues are for drivers but not for user mode applications. In general companies try to avoid doing Windows drivers. The solutions based on drivers are more stable and based on existing frameworks.

For example, in the case of companies like Trend Micro they sign a yearly support contract for supporting any OS app update.

I can answer any "extreme" public or private (via our website contact) question.

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#36
post #30

http://archive.is/KsAxC if you can't view the original page

yes! thankyou - all I got when I went to that link was a fuzzy image and a great white circle.

There's something fishy with the adblock detection at forbes.com. I have no adblocker at all in Chrome, but I can't get pass the landing page that tells me to disable the adblocker.

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#37
post #2

We've been trying to fight a security auditor requirement to put antivirus on all of our amazon amis (including linux). It's insane that anyone thinks that improves security.

From experience many so called 'security auditor's tend not to have a clue what they're talking about technically, and operate from a playbook. They do however speak the the same language as management. Buzzword bingo, spreading FUD, selling snake oil.

> From experience many so called 'security auditor's tend not to have a clue what they're talking about...

Relevant: "How do I give our security auditor the information he wants? (2011)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12434215

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#38
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a system in the scope of the audit, if you can demonstrate that the files coming in are checked for malware before they get on your critical systems, this is one example of a compensating control. Further, if you can demonstrate in auditable fashion that there are no browsers or other network connections or other typical vectors for infection, that can be a compensating control. [Edit] Or if you can demonstrate t…

So, in a typical SAAS cloud application environment, is ISO 27001 just off the table for anyone serious about security? As (in effect) the CSO for a bunch of decently-sized startups, I would have a hard time approving the deployment of any kind of antimalware tool, because the risk simply isn't worth the reward. Even when deployed on isolated systems and not every end system and server, they're still intrinsically da…

No, there's nothing in ISO 27001 that says "you must have antivirus".

You do a risk assessment, and if you can reasonably argue that you can mitigate the risk without antivirus, you're fine.

It's different with PCI-DSS and other standards: those actually have stricter requirements (you don't get to do a risk assessment yourself).

Ping me if you have more questions! Glad to elaborate.

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#39

It doesn't mention this in the article, but I assume they got paid by Trend Micro for their work? Bug bounties, etc. If so, I wonder how much they made?

No, some of these security bugs were found by the Google Project Zero and Tavis Ormandy

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10882563

https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=69...

The whole thread of comments is quite scary...

Re: Hackers Tear Apart Trend Micro, Find 200 Vulnerabilities In 6 Months

#40
post #2

We've been trying to fight a security auditor requirement to put antivirus on all of our amazon amis (including linux). It's insane that anyone thinks that improves security.

Maybe you can convince him with the following arguments:

"Thinking that a huge program, written in C, with a code base from the 90ies, running as root or, even worst, in kernel space and parsing untrusted inputs by definition can improve security is kind of crazy."

From what I've seen in the Linux world, Anti-virus software tends to be pretty bad.

I've already posted something about the TrendMicro one here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10883777

The Kaspersky one, last time I checked, looked a little better (proper packaging and integration) but it seemed somewhat neglected (no 64bits version, no support for newer debian/ubuntu/RedHat releases).

The only commercial one which seems to be properly maintained on Linux was Sophos, it even has an open sourced working kernel module for realtime scanning (and it also supports the dnotily API). But it had some scary security flaws in the past: https://community.sophos.com/kb/en-us/118424

If you really have to use an AV, the least worst option is ClamAV, at least it's Open Sourced and packaged in most distributions. With the dnotify kernel API it can do realtime analysis.

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