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Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

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Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#251

Post by jimmywanger »

794CD01 wrote: post #198
jimmywanger wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, money is transferred from taxpayers to high income colocated workers who will presumably spend it in the economy. Also, you're ignoring the national security implications of the thing. We cannot afford to be dependent on a foreign country for high tech skills. That's one reason why protectionism makes sense. As a country, we're willing to pay extra for certain basic manufacturing/services to stay in…

That's both literally and figuratively backwards. You're describing a scenario where the relationship between the countries becomes so hostile that we have to worry about what happens if one of us cuts off the flow of talent. But what we should really care about is making the flow of talent so voluminous and indispensable to both nations that relations cannot deteriorate to that point. That's real national security.

> But what we should really care about is making the flow of talent so voluminous and indispensable to both nations that relations cannot deteriorate to that point.

That has not happened in the history of mankind. Talent moving around is rather high on Maslov's hierarchy of needs. If your country is out of arable farmland, clean water, or minerals, you will start looking around for places to get those materials.

If they will not trade for them, generally you invade.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#252

Post by xHopen »

emperorcezar wrote: post #138
xHopen wrote: post #102

Maybe one day no one would like to live in USA, and the citizens will start migrating, investors will choose other countries, and then only "Americans" will live there. Then people will realise , we fucked it up , probably they will never get it.

Hopefully at that point they can migrate from the US to the Republic of California http://www.yescalifornia.org/

The whole thing is so absurd that sometimes I wonder whether this is a computer simulation or not.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#253

Post by 794CD01 »

mattnewton wrote: post #220
794CD01 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dictatorial and authoritarian are not necessarily negatives. Calls for a businessman to cut through the red tape and run the government more efficiently are almost as old as American democracy itself. Call it whatever you like, we knew that's how this candidate wanted to operate and voted for it anyway.

The problem is that many people thought they needed to take Trump's plans & pronouncements metaphorically when they voted for him. People who worked for him even http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-symbolically-ant... The problem more generally with that is that once you give that much power up with out an expiration date it will be very hard to restore back to a moderate position. And even the proponents of…

I don't think the policy itself is good either, I'm just saying that the idea of implementing policy now, even if it has bugs, might be preferable to letting the perfect be the enemy of the good to the point where we do nothing about problems - even if they are merely imaginary problems.

As for electing someone because you don't believe they will follow through on their campaign promises, only to be disappointed when they try to do what they claimed they would, that is the culmination of a whole mess of other problems.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#254

Post by pm90 »

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #249
pm90 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, according to your philosophy, I could go to Saudi Arabia and claim an oil well? No, but you should be given a fair chance to arrive legally and legally buy land and legally search for oil. Not just take something that belongs to others, which is a violation of property rights. He is basically trying to bring out the point that an accident of birth should not be the basis for discrimination. He is doing that by…

Why should a people be forced to put up their ancestral lands on the international market for exploitation by others? Because otherwise the West will bomb them?

No, because they in turn, should be given access to purchase your ancestral lands, if they are on their market.

You are unfortunately re-framing the question as some sort of property grab like the parent. Let me repeat: I do NOT condone anyone usurping property by force. My point is to illustrate the principle of making it available on a global market in a reciprocal way.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#255

Post by davidf18 »

This is an article about 250 Disney of FL jobs that were displaced by H1-B Visa abuse. Trump was clearly against the abuse and spoke out against it. Rubio on the other hand was for tripling the number of Visas to 250,000 and had Disney as one of his major donors.

Much of Silicon Valley wants to keep wages depressed and have more American unemployed by hiring more immigrant workers over using Americans. Many people say they dislike Trump, but of all the candidate except for Sanders he was the only ones who wasn't bought by Silicon Valley and Wall Street. I believe Joe Biden also was not bought by SV and Wall Street and was concerned about American workers.

"While Donald Trump has called on Disney to hire back all of these workers and has pledged to end H-1B job theft as President, Sen. Marco Rubio has pushed to expand the controversial H-1B program—he has introduced two bills that would dramatically boost the issuances of H-1Bs. As recently as last year, Rubio introduced a bill—endorsed by Disney’s CEO Bob Iger via his immigration lobbying firm—that would triple the issuances of H-1Bs. Disney is one of Sen. Rubio’s top financial backers—having donated more that $2 million according to Open Secrets."

http://www.breitbart.com/immigration/2016/02/28/displaced-di...

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#256

Post by tsycho »

Trump is playing "divide and conquer". Make every action benefit some segment of people, and sow discord among your opponents.

That said, as a highly skilled, highly paid H1B person at one of those top companies who probably needs to wait 5 more years to get a green card by virtue of being born in the "wrong" country, I completely agree that there are a lot of things broken in the current system. I just don't know if Trump is actually interested in fixing them, or if this is just another populist move to appease his voter base.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#257

Post by bdhe »

refurb wrote: post #141

This is going to be a fantastic test of HN's objectivity. In any discussion on immigration there is always a huge thread on the abuse of the H1-B program. I see words like "indentured servitude" and "undercutting tech salaries". If Trump reforms the H1-B program to eliminate these issues, will people say "I agree with what Trump did"? I won't hold my breath.

I think HN passed your objectivity test with flying colors. The top comment is sticking its neck out and the top reply is a pretty succinct summary of how many people feel (myself included).

> Maybe.

> Here's the thing. Think about this as an MVP slapped together in a weekend, about to hit the biggest batch of software testers around. They're going to find show stopping bugs. And every one of those bugs is going to be someone's life, uprooted.

> Visa allocation changes _going_forward_ are certainly a reasonable thing. Fully within the realm of policy. But I'm going to bet that these changes are going to be of a far wider scope than expected and include people on current visas, and I wouldn't bet against visas getting revoked and workers having to go home the next day or get deported.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#258

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

sidlls wrote: post #250
yomly wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Or the ever popular "I don't get paid enough for this!" The danger of criticising this behaviour is that it is putting the onus on the employee to earn their money rather than the employer to pay their employees. Doing so is actually anti-employee, and given that most of us are employees - self-destructive. While I fully agree people should have some self agency to earn their wage, it is naive to think companies don…

Support for protectionism and regulation in this context are frequently derided as racist (or generally bigoted). It's amusing given how easily "Americans won't do these jobs" (which is code for "Americans are lazy, entitled, etc.") slips into the discussion.

"Americans won't do these jobs..."

...at the slave wage being offered.

That's the part they never mention.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#259

Post by TheCoelacanth »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #247
hx87 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not hating on Indians per se, but hating on the wage-depressing way they are hired. H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Now if they could job-hop like the rest of us, their presence wouldn't depress wages so much, and we'll all be better off. In other words, we want more freedom for them, not less, nor the crippleware BS that is the current H1B system. Same goes for und…

H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Sure you do: you can find a new employer willing to spend a couple of thousand (i.e. a lot less than recruiting costs) on transferring the visa. There is no barrier to a Mexican illegal immigrant changing jobs whatsoever. I'm all in favor of making it easier for people to come to the US and productively work for willing employers (whe…

Except whenever you change employers your green-card application resets. For people born in India, green cards applications are currently being processed from July 2005. That means someone from India who is trying to become a permanent resident is stuck at the same company for over a decade.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#260

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #56
throwaway_374 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" increasing costs to consumers by protecting high-wage American workers from foreign competition?" Sorry I have to disagree, I am the most vehement loather of Trump and his fan base but fundamentally this just encourages a race to the bottom, does it not?

Allowing competition between whites and negroes (by ending Jim Crow, Davis Bacon and similar laws) also encourages a race to the bottom. Do you have any principled reason for opposing those laws? (Note: I'm not calling you "racist" - that's a slur that has lost all meaning these days. I'm taking a policy I'm pretty sure you oppose and asking you for a principled reason why you oppose it.)

Do you need anything more than government should be enacting the will of its citizens?

Seems to me that's the most principled stance one can take.

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