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Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

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Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#241
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not. Nothing in the thought experiment implies the laws of the country are not superior to those of the municipality. And as those laws require the country to treat all its citizens equaly and/or explicitly forbid discrimination, a municiaplity could not legally create such rules. This is not a hypothetical - the collective ownership way of thinking applies just fine to the US, where such discrimination was rul…

Sure, but why stop the collective ownership at the border? Why not have everyone have a share of the whole world? What is the fundamental difference that makes "municipality : country" nonanalogous to "country : world"?

We don't have a world government.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#243
post #227
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are discussing hiring local workers, not outsourcing. The local workers just happen to be brown and born in a different place. One distinction is that many immigrant workers will be sending money back to their family in their home country, resulting in a net drain on the economy in which they're working. I'm not saying this is a good reason to make life harder for them, but I do think it's a fair point.

It's not that simple. An Indian expatriate's remittance may leave American shores, for example, but then re-enters when their family buys iPhones, Ford's and Hershey's.

As someone who sends back thousands of dollars a year to family in Russia and Lithuania: they're sure as hell not spending it on American products. They spend it on food, medicine, housing, and education which are all sourced locally except for a tiny fraction of products that can't be (mostly IP restricted things like medicine, textbooks, movies). Once in a while they'll buy a computer manufactured in China from an ostensibly American company that rarely repatriates their profits.

The problem is that most American exports are luxury goods (even in agriculture) and when you come from a poor country where a few hundred dollars makes a huge difference, those exports will account for a tiny amount of the capital sent there. There are many long tail benefits but I doubt they are quantifiable enough to say that the drain from remittances is anywhere near break even.

Edited to add: my family doesn't even need the money, despite having health conditions that would economically cripple someone in the US without the best insurance. Salary + pensions + free education and healthcare are enough to survive so most of the money I send them are to give them breathing room and spending money. I think half of what I send them gets spent on spoiling the younger family members and the rest goes into a rainy day account. The only time they "spend" on American products is when one of us in the US buys them iPads/iPhones (on top of the remittance) as gifts on one of our visits and they buy a $5 game twice a year for the kids to play.

That said, if Americans knew how much of the >$100 billion remittance market went to buying little kids books, candy bars, sports equipment, and board games, they'd think the money was worth all the happiness it brings.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#244
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not that good for software developers or anyone really. Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. And so all that is going to happen is that companies are going to shift entire projects offshore or simply not take on as many projects. There does need to be reform. But frankly given the chaotic manner in which the Trump administration is crafting and implem…

> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. I can only speak to my experience. At my current employer we have about 60-70% H1Bs in my department (development). Even more in QA. And they aren't particularly talented. After reviewing the public information though, they are getting paid 50% of what I am. So they are living with multiple other visa workers in one apar…

I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#245

I love HN. Trump hating on Iranians and Mexicans. HN: "I hate Trump, he's so mean to immigrants. And avocado prices will go up! ::angry face:: Trump hating on Indians who took our jobs! HN: "Protectionism for me too? ::swoons::"

Not hating on Indians per se, but hating on the wage-depressing way they are hired. H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Now if they could job-hop like the rest of us, their presence wouldn't depress wages so much, and we'll all be better off. In other words, we want more freedom for them, not less, nor the crippleware BS that is the current H1B system. Same goes for undocumented Mexicans. If they could organize and switch jobs without fear of deportation, their presence wouldn't depress manual labor wages nearly as much.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are secondary effects, and it is very much debatable who they favour. I would argue reducing the labour pool gives workers a stronger bargaining position, and thus better wages, reducing the rising income inequality.

That would only be true if it gave better wages to people below the median. If you give better wages to people above the median, you increase inequality.

Median? Why not average? Is it because the vast majority of wealth is held by the absurdly rich, and using the median allows you to largerly ignore that?

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#247
post #245

I love HN. Trump hating on Iranians and Mexicans. HN: "I hate Trump, he's so mean to immigrants. And avocado prices will go up! ::angry face:: Trump hating on Indians who took our jobs! HN: "Protectionism for me too? ::swoons::"

Not hating on Indians per se, but hating on the wage-depressing way they are hired. H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Now if they could job-hop like the rest of us, their presence wouldn't depress wages so much, and we'll all be better off. In other words, we want more freedom for them, not less, nor the crippleware BS that is the current H1B system. Same goes for und…

H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages.

Sure you do: you can find a new employer willing to spend a couple of thousand (i.e. a lot less than recruiting costs) on transferring the visa.

There is no barrier to a Mexican illegal immigrant changing jobs whatsoever.

I'm all in favor of making it easier for people to come to the US and productively work for willing employers (whether high skilled Indians or low skilled Mexicans). But it's pretty clear that this isn't what Trump is proposing.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only be true if it gave better wages to people below the median. If you give better wages to people above the median, you increase inequality.

Median? Why not average? Is it because the vast majority of wealth is held by the absurdly rich, and using the median allows you to largerly ignore that?

It doesn't really matter - median household income is $72k while median is $56k.

According to pretty much any commonly used definition of inequality, giving more money to >$100k/year software engineers will increase inequality.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#249
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, according to your philosophy, I could go to Saudi Arabia and claim an oil well? What is your principle? Anarchism, world government, no borders? I honestly do not understand your point.

> So, according to your philosophy, I could go to Saudi Arabia and claim an oil well? No, but you should be given a fair chance to arrive legally and legally buy land and legally search for oil. Not just take something that belongs to others, which is a violation of property rights. He is basically trying to bring out the point that an accident of birth should not be the basis for discrimination. He is doing that by…

Why should a people be forced to put up their ancestral lands on the international market for exploitation by others? Because otherwise the West will bomb them?

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#250
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not like the argument that "proud" Americans wouldn't put up with the same thing, but it's true. Not liking the statement doesn't make reality less real. I see this day in and day out in tech companies with my own eyes. Long after everyone else has gone home, the contractors are working and dealing with last minute client changes to the point where they are exhausted. Meanwhile, their onshore counterparts mak…

>Or the ever popular "I don't get paid enough for this!" The danger of criticising this behaviour is that it is putting the onus on the employee to earn their money rather than the employer to pay their employees. Doing so is actually anti-employee, and given that most of us are employees - self-destructive. While I fully agree people should have some self agency to earn their wage, it is naive to think companies don…

Support for protectionism and regulation in this context are frequently derided as racist (or generally bigoted). It's amusing given how easily "Americans won't do these jobs" (which is code for "Americans are lazy, entitled, etc.") slips into the discussion.
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