Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#231

Post by hkmurakami » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #194

794CD01 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has some huge problems which we've all seen this weekend, but in the long run, is that really worse than the old style of decades of inaction and debate topped off by an ineffectual bill that does nothing? It's pretty similar to the disruption in the tech industry. "What do you mean you deploy bugs to production and then fix them after end users report them? Haven't you heard of QA?!!"

The difference is bugs in the current ad-tech darling or "uber for tindr dogs" won't ruin people's lives. There are good reasons why most professions (and even most difficult software) can't act as flippantly as "test it in prod".

There are plenty of examples of accounts getting accidentally banned by Google/Amazon and someone's livelihood vaporizing overnight.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#232

Post by 0xcafecafe » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #202

freehunter wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's not even remotely the same thing. Trump hating on Iranians for no good reason . Trump hating on Mexicans who are here legally or aren't even in the country (the whole "Mexicans are rapists, but I'm sure there's some good ones" comment). Versus Trump changing immigration policy to balance foreign and domestic workers, where it's heavily tipped to foreign workers right now. He's not building a wall to keep…

It's heavily tipped to foreign workers? For a US worker to find a job, they need to find a willing employer. For a foreign worker, they need to: 0) Find a willing employer. 1) Get lucky. For 2017, there were 236,000 applications for 65,000 H1Bs (about a 25% success rate). 2) Prove that an American worker isn't available to do the job. 3) Wait > 8 months to start the job (applications happen in April 2016 for 2017 emp…

Not to mention the exhorbitant wait times to get permanent residency for Indians(and Chinese). As things stand, with an approved petition for 2011 or later it will be well over a decade before they can get a green card.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#233

Post by Synroc » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

Just for perspective here, I'm currently an H1-B holder at a "unicorn" tech company.

I did not have multiple H1-B applications, I was educated in the US, and I got very very lucky in getting the lottery. I'm paid the same as my coworkers on my team, I do not have to work longer hours than them, and for all intents and purposes I am treated equally by my peers or management (not skipped on promotions, raises etc).

So to speak, I work in the category of companies that do not abuse the H1-B system, and uses it to find the right candidates (We've been looking for someone to add to our team for 1 year at this point, and we can't find anyone, american or not).

That said, even though I might benefit from this, I am still worried personally as the devil will be in the details, and these things have a tendency to have unintended consequences. Furthermore, I'm in the very early stages of postulating for a green card, and what the future of that process may entail also keeps me up at night. I really hope I will not have to pack up my things and be forced to leave at any moment.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#234

Post by KirinDave » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #170

croon wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before people dismiss this, it is an actual Trump quote.

It is also completely true.

It's not though. You don't "default" but your currency has to be well managed to a certain degree. The Dollar exists as it does because of its status as a reserve currency and because of how the Yuan is pinned relative to it.

You could break it. It's not immune to the hyperinflation that's hit other currencies.

Historically, the only other proposed option was the EU and much as been made about unsustainable financial policy there (many allege these issues are overblown to help discredit the notion of a strong Euro, but that's neither here nor there). But now we're starting to talk about creating to-order currencies with arbitrary properties, guaranteed supply limits and curiously popular ownership policies.

While governments will never give up the power to mint their own currency, it's not unimaginable that in 10 years some some countries will seriously consider participating in a digital reserve.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#235

Post by Chris2048 » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

supercanuck wrote: post #213

Chris2048 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? lack of money? Maybe if wages increased...

because the vast majority are doing support tickets stuck in a support center at a company like South California Edison, Verizon or Dow Chemical working with Enterprise Software like Oracle, Informatica, SAP etc. They are four to a room in an apartment in Minnesota where they send 3/4 of their paycheck back to India to support their family. In your mind, you are thinking of the 10-15% working in Silicon Valley as cod…

And if wages increased? I'm going to disregard those with families, it's hard for anyone to compete with dependents.

Also, are you talking about Americans, or workers on visas? It sounds like the latter, but I was talking about the former, i.e. American IT workers can keep wages/conditions up by choosing startups if things start to drop, in a way I doubt agriculture workers could.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#236

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #202

freehunter wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's not even remotely the same thing. Trump hating on Iranians for no good reason . Trump hating on Mexicans who are here legally or aren't even in the country (the whole "Mexicans are rapists, but I'm sure there's some good ones" comment). Versus Trump changing immigration policy to balance foreign and domestic workers, where it's heavily tipped to foreign workers right now. He's not building a wall to keep…

It's heavily tipped to foreign workers? For a US worker to find a job, they need to find a willing employer. For a foreign worker, they need to: 0) Find a willing employer. 1) Get lucky. For 2017, there were 236,000 applications for 65,000 H1Bs (about a 25% success rate). 2) Prove that an American worker isn't available to do the job. 3) Wait > 8 months to start the job (applications happen in April 2016 for 2017 emp…

Keep in mind, a large amount of those applications are pushed by outsourcing companies, that are gaming the system.

"Federal officials allow only one application for each foreign worker, but companies can submit an unlimited number of applications for their employees, so global outsourcing giants can, and do, submit many requests."

And one third of all approved H1Bs are for those outsourcing firms.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcin...

The spammed requests by these firms make it more difficult for foreign workers to get through this process, too, unless they work for these outsourcing firms.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#237

Post by yourapostasy » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

belltaco wrote: post #221

yourapostasy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, tech worker market is global and large companies always have the choice to outsource plain and simple. The tech worker market segment the body shops proliferate within in the US is one-way permeable: from developing to developed world markets. There is nowhere near the kind of market demand for developed world tech workers in developing world markets. Without that equivalency, claiming a "global" mark…

>The tech worker market segment the body shops proliferate within in the US is one-way permeable: from developing to developed world markets. But software services flow the other way. Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc. are big players in India, and US employees benefit from increased revenue and profit from those populations. You cannot arbitrarily pick and choose the aspects of globalization that hurt you vs. that ben…

> ... and US employees benefit from increased revenue and profit from those populations.

US employees of "Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc.", or US employees in aggregate?

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#238

Post by akiselev » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

794CD01 wrote: post #198

jimmywanger wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, money is transferred from taxpayers to high income colocated workers who will presumably spend it in the economy. Also, you're ignoring the national security implications of the thing. We cannot afford to be dependent on a foreign country for high tech skills. That's one reason why protectionism makes sense. As a country, we're willing to pay extra for certain basic manufacturing/services to stay in…

That's both literally and figuratively backwards. You're describing a scenario where the relationship between the countries becomes so hostile that we have to worry about what happens if one of us cuts off the flow of talent. But what we should really care about is making the flow of talent so voluminous and indispensable to both nations that relations cannot deteriorate to that point. That's real national security.

Right, until that other country elects an orange demagogue that utilizes popular discontent to demonize you and cut off that flow of talent, regardless of the mutually assured harm. Societies are fickle, especially in times of war or increasing tensions. A well maintained local talent pool and industrial capacity subsidized against foreign economic forces are not.

Relying on other nations is the exact opposite of national security and it's naive to think that they will be by our side when shit hits the fan. We've seen too much in the last hundred years to leave our most critical industries to chance.

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#239

Post by refurb » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #180

vermontdevil wrote: post #167

I'm all for reform but an executive order? Something on this scale needs to go through Congress first.

This is, I'm afraid, going to be a hallmark of the Trump presidency. We're dealing with someone who is used to being "The Boss". Someone pointed out to me that he as a Congress that has shown that it will be pliant and enabling (for better or worse), and that Executive Orders are not necessary. But to Trump, they are, in a different way. We are dealing with someone for whom, having to have his decisions "signed off o…

This is, I'm afraid, going to be a hallmark of the Trump presidency.

I think I know who he learned it from.[1]

[1]https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/14/us/politics/obama-era-leg...

Re: Trump’s Next Move on Immigration to Hit Closer to Home for Tech

#240

Post by fernandotakai » Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #202

freehunter wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's not even remotely the same thing. Trump hating on Iranians for no good reason . Trump hating on Mexicans who are here legally or aren't even in the country (the whole "Mexicans are rapists, but I'm sure there's some good ones" comment). Versus Trump changing immigration policy to balance foreign and domestic workers, where it's heavily tipped to foreign workers right now. He's not building a wall to keep…

It's heavily tipped to foreign workers? For a US worker to find a job, they need to find a willing employer. For a foreign worker, they need to: 0) Find a willing employer. 1) Get lucky. For 2017, there were 236,000 applications for 65,000 H1Bs (about a 25% success rate). 2) Prove that an American worker isn't available to do the job. 3) Wait > 8 months to start the job (applications happen in April 2016 for 2017 emp…

when americans talk about privilege, they never realize how big of a privilege it is to be american and to live in the us.

i love my country and my city, but my life would be a lot easier if i lived in the us.