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Make America Hate Again

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121–130 of 368 posts

Re: Make America Hate Again

#121

For people outside the US, I believe it is perfectly fine to donate to ACLU, but do check if there is an equivalent organization in your country. For example in the UK there is Liberty ( https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/ ). Threats to human rights are a global problem after all.

Can confirm. I'm a UK citizen with no US bank account but donate monthly to the ACLU (payment is taken off a UK credit card).

Re: Make America Hate Again

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate, because I don't understand. Usually people would like the society in general to have less bigotry, hatred, and racism. Do you think Trump will help us get there, and how?

Well first you need to establish that Trump are actually doing those things. This is the primary issues once you actually dig into things he might just as well just be nationalist which means occupied with US citizens not world citizens. From the perspective of a nationalist the extreme measures Trump have taken are simply to secure the country. From the perspective of a globalist he is destroying the very foundation…

If one wanted to assess the relative merits of the respective perspectives, one could consider whether the list of nations affected and unaffected corresponded with evidence of relative security risks, what the opinions of people tasked with securing the country were on its likely efficacy, and of course whether Trump's circle discussed the order with those responsible for executing it in order to ensure it was clear and enforceable or purposely kept the vaguely worded text of the order from them until they were required to implement it, with the inevitable result of confusion, a legal challenge and people whose right to enter the country changed in mid-flight. And timed the announcement for Holocaust Memorial Day.

Then one could also take into account many of his critics aren't remotely globalist and some of them have invested significant political effort into trying to destroy the very foundation of global organisations like the EU.

I think based on the above no reasonable person could conclude the argument his primary focus was security has as much merit as the argument his primary focus was to cause maximum chaos to upset liberals, enthuse the elements of his base most excited by anti-Muslim gesture politics and test the loyalties of his colleagues in Congress and border agencies.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#123
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you really believe this? honest question.

Believe what? I stated an easily verifiable fact.

It's also not very relevant since there's bound to be a strong relation between being relatively stable and prosperous (to say nothing of free, mind) and having trump hotels. I'm no fan of him, but I also don't like "my side" using weak attacks.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#124
In the 1990's in Gwinnett County, GA, you could not enroll your child in school unless he/she had a Social Security number. Non-citizens (including illegal aliens) were exempt from this rule. I considered declaring my children non-citizens as a minor protest, but really didn't care to make an issue of it. Would today's hysterics classify that 1990's policy as hatred, bigotry, and racism agains the (then) largely white, legal citizens of the county? Or would it simply be selective enforcement of the law? The fact is, the executive branch always practices selective enforcement, and the range of emphasis on some policies can vary wildly from one administration to another, and seemingly arbitrary exceptions can be made. In my opinion, Trump is delivering the revised emphasis on immigration that he promised during the campaign, and so far is doing so entirely within the law. People are free to react as they will, but I do hope they learn to recognize selective enforcement in all its glory, as a concept separate and distinct from the over-emotional labels now being applied to it.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#125
post #68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But guess what? Iran was, but Suadi Arabia wasn't. There are the stated reasons why the US government thinks a certain way and there are the real reasons. Saudi Arabia is a big one. I suspect the real reasons is we have oil deals with Saudi Arabia and Iran has oil deals with Russia. Also Iran nationalized US interests in the late 70s with the revolution. The US punished Cuba for the same thing for 50 years (plus the…

I do agree with you. But my biggest conclusion is Trump is super smart. Trump is super smart to play an outsider role because he knows how desperately people looking for an outsider, but at the other hand DNC and Obama were stupid enough to not get it. He is an insider as much as Clinton. But he is way smarter than DNC, Clinton, Obama. God, I missed Bernie.

Well Obama was smart enough to act an outsider (the "change candidate" to get elected (and then also re-elected), but then also keep the status quo as an insider to keep the job. Hillary couldn't act an outsider to even get elected.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#126

I know what "hate" means. I know what bigotry is, and I know what racism means. Don't you?

No. I'm told I'm racist because I think blacks and whites are interchangeable, and because I don't care about one over the other. I'm told I'm racist for thinking the opposite. I'm told it's racist to discriminate on the basis of race. I'm also told it's racist NOT to do so. The closest principle I can find that predicts who is considered a racist is "republican = racist". Can you provide a clear definition of racism…

you make a lot of great points that call back to one central concept: the liberal idea of "racism" is multifaceted and constantly shifting to be more inclusive.

understanding what "racism" is requires you to keep up with the thought development that's ongoing, and frankly it's too much work for almost everyone to do so.

perhaps a different perspective will be useful, and i'm just making this up as i go, so bear with me.

imagine a utopian society in which 100% of people have complete equality of opportunity as well as ability to capitalize on opportunities. the society itself has no needs which are unmet, and vast resources which are disbursed equally. this means that the choice of what to do with one's destiny is limited only by their share of the society's resources. if there ever were any ethnicity, religions, or races, they've long since been forgotten, and all the members of this society are united in their affection for equality and humanism.

here, someone going for a facile point would ask what color do you imagine the people of this society to be (looking for a "gotcha", you're a racist), but that's not my purpose. instead, try to work your way backward from this theoretical society to the broad term of "racism" we have today. what needs to change?

for one, the actual situation of an arbitrary group of people needs to change, along with their mental outlook. let's say that this arbitrary group starts off with fewer opportunities than the rest, though their ability to capitalize on what opportunities they have is supposedly unchanged. their mental outlook is thus that of starting from behind, and they're not wrong.

because they've started from behind, the development of this group to reach their individual goals for life is slower. if the citizens of the rest of the society truly love equality in the fashion that they claim, then they must redistribute all of their resources en-masse, removing the disparity between the groups. unfortunately, in our thought experiment, a one-time transfer isn't enough, and each new generation the disadvantaged group will need to receive some resources from everyone else.

this spawns resentment among a portion of the egalitarian-minded population. we'll call this portion the conservatives. fed up with having less as a result of the group requiring their resources, they decide as a bloc to withhold their contribution despite still benefiting from the general climate of promoting equality themselves. predictably, the disadvantaged group begins to fall further behind, as they're not receiving as many resources as before. we now have the poor, the liberals, and the conservatives.

eventually, the withdrawal of resources by the conservatives begins to impact the poor more severely, and limits their ability to capitalize on opportunities as well as additionally hurting the resources that they start with. their sphere of potential paths to take in life shrinks expediently. education becomes more limited, many lose sight of egalitarian ideals, and a few turn to crime. the utopian society is no longer utopian at this point in our journey toward our reality.

let's fast forward a number of generations. the situation of the poor group has degraded considerably, and poverty has scarred the minds of its people. the egalitarian ideals of the past are still alive, in some people-- but to ignore the dilapidated condition of the poor group is impossible, and so calls to renew equality are aspirational. many have invented stories about why exactly it is that the poor are so unsightly, seem to be the only one committing crimes, and don't have the same resources as everyone else. these stories aren't fantastical, so much as they are filters of perception instantiated in specific incidents. many people treat the group differently as a result of the stories that are told, further reducing their opportunities. we can, at this point, generally say that these filters are equivalent to "racism".

so, let's say you're one of the old-school idealists, and you still think that, even though the challenges are greater than back in the day, equality is necessary and desirable. would you say that the group at the start of the thought experiment is interchangeable with the other groups? no, not anymore, though they were at the start-- and this is a sticking point for understanding the concept of racism in a more nuanced way.

are they NOT interchangeable? at the start of the thought experiment, they were in fact fully interchangeable, until we changed the variables. now, they need more resources to succeed. is it "racist" to discriminate on the basis of race? well, yes, if you believe in egalitarianism, you shouldn't be disqualifying someone because their starting conditions were different-- and if you really, REALLY are serious about egalitarianism, you'll give up some of your resources to them to help them catch up. the liberals would prefer it if everyone were in the REALLY serious camp, and tend to describe alternatives as "racist".

i wonder if this made any sense

Re: Make America Hate Again

#127

Trump campaigned on this. America voted for this. Every nation gets the government it deserves.

Actually, the majority of Americans did NOT vote for this. Even the majority that actually voted didn't vote for this.

Oh boy, not this again. The majority of the electoral college voted for this. That's how both Trump, and Hillary campaigned. To maximize electoral votes. There is no way to predict how it would have turned out, if it was based on popular vote.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#128
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're banning these other words, can we also ban "virtue signaling"? It basically means "you are being insincere" and is just as unproductive.

Never heard about that as maybe not a native English speaker. What is it?

[deleted]

Re: Make America Hate Again

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Trump went to election on "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" [0, donaldjtrump.com] The fact that it was implemented as a ban on citizens from the most prominent Muslim-majority countries (as seen by the eyes of the average American voter, who forgot about Saudi Arabia) could be interpreted as a way for Trump to say he kept his pledge while not being instantly impeached for n…

So basically, it's just posturing? Or would the order be removed eventually?

The current order has a 90-day time limit.

After some Iraqis that got admitted into the US were found to have created an IED when they lived in Iraq, Obama added new "more stringent vetting" to Iraqi immigrants, and it added a month-long delay to new visa approvals for Iraqis. The administration at the time would not admit it was an immigration block, just a delay.

If this is actually a temporary stop to figure out better vetting, or just pointless posturing, or a more long-term block, nobody outside the White House knows for certain.

Re: Make America Hate Again

#130
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like it because it includes the implication that you're doing it to ingratiate yourself with people who are already your allies, and passing it off as bravery. That's more specific than insincere.

My point isn't that it's redundant, but that's it's an unproductive thing to say. If you want to insult someone, you might as well come out and use some curse words. Don't hide behind scientific language.

Banned as an accusation against someone you're arguing against as ad hominem well poisoning? Yes. Otherwise, no.
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