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New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

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Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#102
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to see how this comment, as common as it is, is anything but unscientific. Biological systems are often highly predictable in many circumstances - in fact "biological predictability" is what accounts for the general success of all modern medicine and agriculture. If the field "cannot begin to claim we don't fully understand" things now, when do we reach the point where we suddenly "know enough to begin to d…

This is nothing but an appeal to authority. To suggest that accurately gauging the limits of our current knowledge about biological systems is 'anti-scientific' or 'anti-intellectual' goes against everything science stands for, and firmly crosses the line into blind scientism. It remains absolutely true that we understand the software systems we build far better than we understand the biological systems that we are i…

> This is nothing but an appeal to authority.

Again, the original analogy is perfect because the same statement could be made by the hypothetical "anti-software" person - this person could say "You're just appealing to the authority of these computer scientists! They don't know everything, software bugs happen all of the time!"

>To suggest that accurately gauging the limits of our current knowledge about biological systems is 'anti-scientific' or 'anti-intellectual' goes against everything science stands for, and firmly crosses the line into blind scientism.

Yes, of course it does. My point is that you are not in a position to accurately gauge our current knowledge about biological systems, and that everyone who is in that position does not agree with you.

There are plenty of legitimate dangerous and ethical issues in regards to biotech development, even in the near future (just like there are legitimate issues in regards to generalized AI) - but essentially nobody with any field knowledge thinks that on-going research in this category (along with GMO research and synthetic biology) will "accidentally cause a catastrophe, in the same way that while many computer scientists may push for caution with generalized AI, they don't think current ML methods and software will accidentally cause a catastrophe.

>It remains absolutely true that we understand the software systems we build far better than we understand the biological systems that we are intervening in.

I did not suggest that it does not. That is obviously true. However, the original analogy still holds: it really is roughly accurate to claim that the chance of catastrophe occurring from this research should be treated similarly to the chance of catastrophe occurring from ML implementations. While it is impossible to quantify the true chance of catastrophe in either case, both are so considered ludicrously low, unimaginable, and counter to our understanding of the system that experts in the field do not consider it to be a serious threat.

When I say it is "unimaginable", it is because it really is- I can not imagine a scenario where this technology results in some kind of catastrophe. It is actually easier for me to imagine a possibility for the software case, such as a predictive neural network involved in controlling the power grid that gets some unexpected input and creates some unexpected output that causes serious grid malfunctions for millions of people. While that may not be 100% "how things work", it at least seems more plausible than like, this research resulting in catastrophe.

>There is also a straw man in the suggestion that I have said we shouldn't 'do things' until we know more. I never said that.

You may not have, but many people (including here on HN) use similar arguments in order to advocate for suppressing research and progress in biotechnology (with Nassim Taleb being the most public of these people). If you are pro-biotechnology, then great!

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#103
post #15

Definitely interesting work, and some very clever solutions to difficult problems, but to be clear, they only had a single unnatural base pair, and it was only in a plasmid. Addressing the other comments about this leading to some crazy scifi scenario, imagine telling someone you used machine learning to identify spam emails and they started freaking out about how you're going to start Skynet. If you understand how t…

Then again, nobody knows how skynet will get started. If it does happen, you can be sure it'll be done by someone who is sure that things just don't work that way, right up to the moment they are crushed by a giant metal boot.

That's true, but my argument is that we can basically guarantee that a simple neural net won't become self-aware, in the same way that we know that a linear regression library won't become self-aware. The complexity is bounded, just like it is in the experiments described in this paper.

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#104
> Initially, the engineered bacteria were weak and sickly, and would die soon after they received their new base pair, because they couldn’t hold onto it as they divided.

> Finally, the team used the revolutionary gene-editing tool, CRISPR-Cas9 to engineer E. coli that don’t register the X and Y molecules as a foreign invader.

> "This will blow open what we can do with proteins."

> [The base pairs] can't be read and processed into something of value by the bacteria - it's just a proof-of-concept that we can get a life form to take on 'alien' bases and keep them.

> ...have not been designed to work at all in complex organisms, and seeing as they're like nothing found in nature, there's little chance that this could get wildly out of hand.

To quote Jeff Goldblum, "life, uh... finds a way".

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#105

Star Trek depicted one of the scarier applications of such a technology: There, The Jem'Hadaar are a genetically engineered race of warriors controlled by the Dominion, who exert power over them by being the sole provider of a substance (Ketracel-White) that they need in order to survive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Star_Trek) http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ketracel-white If my reading of the paper is…

One of the proposals for prolonging human life by eliminating cancer is to engineer humans who have no stem cells and no mechanisms for repairing telomeres. Instead, such engineered humans would have to undergo massive stem cell and telomere repair therapy once every few years or so. Such a mechanism would also do for an explanation for a Blade Runner style replicant that had an extendable lifespan.

Am I ridiculously cynical to think that similar problems around social/economic control of the new humans would immediately spring up?

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#106
post #6

> "The other reason we don't need to be freaking out, says Romesberg, is that these molecules have not been designed to work at all in complex organisms, and seeing as they're like nothing found in nature, there's little chance that this could get wildly out of hand." This is how the plot of every horror/disaster movie starts.

> This is how the plot of every horror/disaster movie starts. Because its a trope. Can you explain how it gets wildly out of hand beyond speculation?

At the risk of oversimplifying, because "even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Unknown unknowns. You can know your specific problem domain inside and out, and still have other things show up that rapidly invalidate your assumptions about the set of possible outcomes.

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#107
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good as long self-termination is a nice-to-have feature. If you REALLY want them to self-terminate but you found out that they mutated and can now synthesize X & Y, you're in trouble. Genetically modified organisms are a bit scary, but genetically modified organisms that replicate autonomously are more than a bit scary. As programmers - a profession that managed to spread Shellshock, the dumbest imaginable backd…

No, GMOs are inherently safe and you are anti-science /s

GMOs are not inherently safe, they're just not inherently unsafe. It's possible to create something devastating to the environment, but it's also possible to create wonderful things. The trick is being careful to create the right things (which, given how companies work, generally means regulation).

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#108
post #40

Star Trek depicted one of the scarier applications of such a technology: There, The Jem'Hadaar are a genetically engineered race of warriors controlled by the Dominion, who exert power over them by being the sole provider of a substance (Ketracel-White) that they need in order to survive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_(Star_Trek) http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ketracel-white If my reading of the paper is…

It's good as long self-termination is a nice-to-have feature. If you REALLY want them to self-terminate but you found out that they mutated and can now synthesize X & Y, you're in trouble. Genetically modified organisms are a bit scary, but genetically modified organisms that replicate autonomously are more than a bit scary. As programmers - a profession that managed to spread Shellshock, the dumbest imaginable backd…

> If you REALLY want them to self-terminate but you found out that they mutated and can now synthesize X & Y, you're in trouble.

And speaking of the Jem'Hadar, there was an episode of Deep Space Nine based on this idea:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath_(episode...

Re: New organisms have been formed using the first ever 6-letter genetic code

#110
There may be a simpler two codon system embedded inside the three codon system currently by Earth life. That is when multiple codons specify the same amino acid, they almost always share the first two nuclides. So it could be that Earth life experimented with 2 and 3 and maybe even higher codon systems before settling on the one nearly all life uses. There may have been tradeoffs in protein complexity, reliability, energy requirements, etc with system that survived. Maybe just some accidental luck too.
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