Plan B - Skip College • Hacker News Board

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#51

Post by jteo » Sun, May 16, 2010, 7:48 AM UTC

DrSprout wrote: post #33

jacoblyles wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that different people have different degrees of cognitive ability. What you say has some truth to it. But a deficit in preparation can be atoned for by a high degree of ability. And no amount of experience will carry someone who is simply over his head. That has been my experience anyways. We are not all geniuses though I wish we were.

Genius is primarily a learned skill. Yes, some people have more aptitude than others, but the vast majority, if they apply themselves, will do just fine. It's far more a question of a support structure to instill discipline than it is of innate skill. Those who truly cannot learn and maintain discipline are rare.

Just to share a quote that motivated me in university (and turned my grades around dramatically)

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated failures. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent"

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#52

Post by piguy314 » Sun, May 16, 2010, 8:17 AM UTC

whakojacko wrote: post #8

jacoblyles wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

Exactly. The whole "anyone can do anything" culture in America has its benefits, but also its costs. I personally think a good middle ground is to be sending far more students to community colleges. This doesnt immediately comdemn lower-level jobs to the truly determined (as they can transfer out), but it is far more affordable than a 4-year degree without much in the way of a loss of benefits for the students. On th…

The ROI per dollar of associates degrees and technical certificates is like 3 or 4 times higher than a bachelor's degree. Telling people not to goto university is not the same as telling them to get no further training after high school. I think even Obama conceded this when he phrased his admonition to return to school as "some form of post-highschool education"

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#53

Post by piguy314 » Sun, May 16, 2010, 8:19 AM UTC

matwood wrote: post #25

fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

You're assuming that intelligence somehow leads to employment and income. I believe intelligence is only one part of the total equation. IMHO, the larger and more substantial part of the equation is discipline and the ability to execute. This is HN, so look at all the startups that people do around here. Are they really that much more intelligent than everyone else on this list? I'm sure they're all smart people, but…

Malcolm Gladwell found in Outliers that the most dominant determinant of professional success was parents income not intelligence. He talks about a study where they tracked a bunch of gifted children from primary school through mid-life and many of the gifted students born to porn or lower-middle class parents fared poorly in life, whereas the average or sub-average students born to wealthy parents did well.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#54

Post by hristov » Sun, May 16, 2010, 8:57 AM UTC

stretchwithme wrote: post #46

hristov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Also, I think it errs by treating all colleges as equivalent. Since the government subsidises educational loans there are many colleges out there that do not provide much of an education but mostly exist to siphon off those subsidised loans. I think there are many colleges out there which are just not worth going to. Mind you, I am not an ivy league snob, I am not saying go to a top 50 school or not at all.…

absolutely. if people paid market rates for education loans, you'd see an increased focus on rate of return. And we'd also see an increased focus from schools on quality instruction in well paid fields and less spending on recreational facilities. For-profit schools may not be as well regarded, but remember that they have to pay taxes while the others don't. And many get a lot of other subsidies as well. So the real…

I am not sure I agree with that. I like subsidized loans. They should just be more careful that the loans go to worthwhile schools and degrees.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#55

Post by lsc » Sun, May 16, 2010, 10:44 AM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #14

All well and good if it's all about smarts and money, but the social aspects of having to spend four years collaborating and tolerating your peers cannot be underestimated. People who've gone through four years of college are, typically, well-rounded in their general knowledge and social skills, more liberal and more tolerant. Colleges don't just take in kids and output kids with knowledge. They turn kids into a cert…

speaking as someone who didn't go to college, I kindof agree. I mean, I don't know if I agree with the 'more tolerant' bit, but certainly, more liberal and better able to get along with other people who have college degrees, more likely to understand (or at least pretend to understand) modern art, etc...

There are also other, harder to define social changes. The most negative side of this is that I know people who earn 1/5th what I do who won't lower themselves to replacing the brakes on their car. I mean, 'round these parts, mechanics charge $70-$90 an hour. Not many of us make more than that after taxes. This unwillingness to 'break the rules' and accomplish what you need to accomplish can be a pretty big problem.

I don't know if it is what college teaches, or if this is simply what college filters for, but it seems that people who went to school have a narrower view of what they are able/willing to do. (Not as narrow as what one learns in service jobs, but still pretty narrow compared to those of us who do work that 'requires' a degree without having one.)

I mean, that's not always true. I know many English majors turned programmers, some who have become really excellent, and a ridiculous number of physicists turned programmers. But College, in general, seems to come with a diminished respect for industry, especially the trades and working with your hands in general (unless it is 'art') - see discussions here about programming as an art. to some people, it seems, you are somehow insulting programming by comparing it to the work of an electrician, a bricklayer or other tradesman, which to me absolutely sings of arrogance.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#56

Post by gaius » Sun, May 16, 2010, 12:20 PM UTC

lsc wrote: post #50

rdtsc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should a parent tell a child who wants to go into a non-"money" field? Should one still pay $80,000 for 4 years of "Social Studies"? Tell them not to go at all and get a 2 year degree from a community college? We all grew up brainwashed with the idea that "4 year college"="better jobs"="better life". Colleges have been raking in good profits all these years by exploiting that mantra. It is really hard to all of…

do you have the money to spend? Many of my family members got liberal arts degrees, and they felt enriched by the experience. I know visiting them, it sure looked like they were having a good time, meeting interesting people, etc. Me, I got a SysAdmin job rather than going to school, and continued on in that direction. Sure, when I was my sister's age, I made 5x what she does now, but I don't think that was her prima…

Money's freedom, tho'. How many foreign countries could you visit, how many experiences could you have, for the price of a 4-year liberal arts degree?

It's harsh but there are only 2 types of people in college. Those studying towards the field they want to work in, and those pursuing a hobby full-time. The latter would be better served spending the money on first-hand experiences instead of reading about it other people's second-hand.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#57

Post by gaius » Sun, May 16, 2010, 12:27 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #28

jacoblyles wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've pointed out the elephant in the room. In America it is politically incorrect to believe that some people might not have the cognitive capacity to excel in college and in jobs requiring college degrees. Every American is above average. If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. The successful must be condemne…

> If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. This part of your otherwise insightful comment is a bit ridiculous. Most people's success is determined by how much money their parents had and what schools their parents could afford to send them to. Circumstances have a pretty huge impact, and if our system is intended to mini…

OK but where did your parents, or their parents, or their parents get the money in the first place?

There are no shortage of examples of people from humble beginnings who're self-made millionaires, and people born into every privilege who squandered it all.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#58

Post by timr » Sun, May 16, 2010, 4:28 PM UTC

starkfist wrote: post #34

timr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over." It's incorrect to interpret this article as evidence for an anti-intellectual world-view. Nothing in the article suggests that bachelor's degrees will be unimportant in the future, particularly for the best jobs. The article also points out (correctly) that people without college degrees make less on average, and have less r…

You're lucky if you encountered many intellectuals as an undergrad. But actually I think you're right - skilled white collar jobs will die out before skilled or unskilled "blue collar" jobs do. People always will need a broken car fixed, or a wall in their house repaired. The world doesn't necessarily need brand managers and analysts. Most think-work jobs in offices (which college is preparing you for) are non-essent…

I encountered a lot of intellectuals as an undergrad, actually -- and I didn't go to a particularly great school. An undergraduate education is worth what you make of it. If you hang out with idiots, you'll find idiots. Everywhere. But if you're the type of person who would succeed without a degree, you'll have far more opportunity if you can finish college. It's a fact.

Also, you've entirely missed the point of what I wrote: if we do end up living in a world where skilled jobs die out before unskilled jobs, we're in trouble. Hundreds of years of human societal progress have depended upon education and technological development. When that trend goes the other way, our society is well on its way to decline.

When I look over the comments in this thread, I can't help but noticed that 90% of them can be summarized as "I knew some stupid kids in college who did things I think are useless; I knew some kids who didn't go to college and succeeded; therefore, college is useless." It's a logical fallacy, writ large. And when you start associating symbols of education with effete snobbery, you're engaging in anti-intellectualism, no matter what you've accomplished in life, or how many books you read in your spare time.

I honestly don't know why my (parent) comment deserves to be voted down into the weeds, but it makes me a little sad that we've reached the point where a group of "smart" people can so utterly dismiss a factual comment in favor of group-think. If you don't think college is worthwhile, that's fine. But it's still a fact that a college education is associated with higher lifetime income and greater job stability. And I stand by my assertion that if this trend ever reverses itself, our society is in trouble. Glorification of blue-collar labor is a fad reserved to those nations who have the luxury of a lot wealth to lose.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#59

Post by natrius » Sun, May 16, 2010, 4:35 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #57

natrius wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If each citizen is not Bill Gates, it is because they are the victim of circumstance. Other people held them down, the system failed them. This part of your otherwise insightful comment is a bit ridiculous. Most people's success is determined by how much money their parents had and what schools their parents could afford to send them to. Circumstances have a pretty huge impact, and if our system is intended to mini…

OK but where did your parents, or their parents, or their parents get the money in the first place? There are no shortage of examples of people from humble beginnings who're self-made millionaires, and people born into every privilege who squandered it all.

I don't understand where you're going with that argument. It still makes children victims of circumstance.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#60

Post by lidmith » Sun, May 16, 2010, 4:48 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #56

lsc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you have the money to spend? Many of my family members got liberal arts degrees, and they felt enriched by the experience. I know visiting them, it sure looked like they were having a good time, meeting interesting people, etc. Me, I got a SysAdmin job rather than going to school, and continued on in that direction. Sure, when I was my sister's age, I made 5x what she does now, but I don't think that was her prima…

Money's freedom, tho'. How many foreign countries could you visit, how many experiences could you have, for the price of a 4-year liberal arts degree? It's harsh but there are only 2 types of people in college. Those studying towards the field they want to work in, and those pursuing a hobby full-time. The latter would be better served spending the money on first-hand experiences instead of reading about it other peo…

This is an excellent view. The books are there to read, the art is there to view. College can motivate a person who is interested in grades, but not someone interested in the subject. You do lose out on the professor reading a book to you, but you could just read it yourself. Also, the professor isn't there to answer your questions, but, you might ask them via email. Some professors might feel delighted to discuss their subject with a genuinely interested party, rather than a grade seeker.

I think the most important thing you miss out on is the ease of finding peers to discuss the subject with. My degree was in math and physics, and, while I didn't talk to many people about physics (which I feel I don't know very well, btw), I had a good friend in math, and we would often hang out and discuss it. We took a lot of the same classes together (even outside of math), because we got so much out of our discussions.