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Plan B - Skip College

nytimes.com

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Re: Plan B - Skip College

#41

Post by zach »

rdtsc wrote: post #38
warwick wrote: post #5

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near t…

What should a parent tell a child who wants to go into a non-"money" field? Should one still pay $80,000 for 4 years of "Social Studies"? Tell them not to go at all and get a 2 year degree from a community college? We all grew up brainwashed with the idea that "4 year college"="better jobs"="better life". Colleges have been raking in good profits all these years by exploiting that mantra. It is really hard to all of…

I think we have a logic/emotion split about college, where logically we know college costs lots of actual money and should be regarded as an investment, but our emotions have been manipulated to think of college as a certain kind of life-validating experience.

So the decision to go to college is governed by the logic of college as investment, but then the content part is guided by the emotion of college as personal self-realization.

So we end up with a society where countless people pour thousands of dollars into attending college for fundamentally emotional reasons. Or even worse, for mistaken factual reasons about the practical benefit of their education.

In other words, as Ted Rall put it even before college costs doubled, college is for suckers:

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/09.26.96/student-9639...

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#42

Post by jgg »

timr wrote: post #18
samatman wrote: post #15

Especially amusing: of the 10 fastest growing job categories, two require college degrees. One is accounting; the other is postsecondary education. In other words, the manufacture of college degrees. This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over.

"This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over." It's incorrect to interpret this article as evidence for an anti-intellectual world-view. Nothing in the article suggests that bachelor's degrees will be unimportant in the future, particularly for the best jobs. The article also points out (correctly) that people without college degrees make less on average, and have less r…

I never knew that I had to have a bachelors to be an "intellectual". I refused to join Mensa even after I could have, does that make me "not gifted"?

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the uninteresting middle, and depends a lot on what school you go to, how much you apply yourself, and other factors. Sure, you might learn some things from school. Are these really things that you couldn't learn outside of university walls?

Just saying that a Bachelor's degree isn't helpful to a lot of people doesn't make anyone anti-intellectual, any more than advocating squeaking through a 4 year degree in "University Studies" at Podunk U. makes you pro-intellectual. Being an intellectual is a mindset. A Bachelors degree is a piece of paper that says you did whatever was required to get said piece of paper, which probably didn't involve being an intellectual 100% of the time. That what's I was trying to get at with my unfortunately-snarky-sounding Mensa comment above.

I realize that this part of your comment might actually have been suggesting that if we declare a Bachelors as useless for a bunch of people, the masses will decide that stupidity is an acceptable state of being. If that's the case, I think we should be honest and admit that someone squeezing through a crap degree just because everyone says he should isn't going to cure him of whatever problem allows him to look at learning and knowledge with such a care-free attitude. If someone isn't capable of understanding why learning is important or, worse, is looking for any excuse they can find to tear down people who value education, there's a problem that's being ignored way before they even think about entering college.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#43

Post by iamdave »

I saw a comment in here about people who earn degrees but end up in jobs that aren't even remotely related to them:

I just started a job at the data center of a major mobile provider, electronics developer and appliance manufacturing organization. My particular department is the IT department that supports the call center operations, there are six guys total in my department.

I have a degree in political science. Jim (names have been changed) has a degree in biology. Joe has a degree in English Ken has a degree in environmental science.

Just barely 80% of the people in my department don't have computer science degrees, but we're working in the IT department of a mobile provider. How did we get the jobs? We're all hackers who grew up around technology and got practical, real-life experience.

Personally, I think that's the way to go. But at the same time, I'm reminded everyday of how important humanities studies are, when I'm in a conversation with someone younger than me about politics, and I bring up the Holocaust and they genuinely don't know what the Holocaust is.

Then I see people who vehemently defend the notion that if you don't make practical application of the knowledge provided in these humanities class, they're moot and you don't need to know them.

Talk about being on the fence, I'm living it everyday.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#44

Post by petercooper »

zach wrote: post #39
petercooper wrote: post #14

All well and good if it's all about smarts and money, but the social aspects of having to spend four years collaborating and tolerating your peers cannot be underestimated. People who've gone through four years of college are, typically, well-rounded in their general knowledge and social skills, more liberal and more tolerant. Colleges don't just take in kids and output kids with knowledge. They turn kids into a cert…

So it's not about the curriculum? How else would this gestalt effect occur? I can well understand how treatment effects happen at the Naval Academy or at prep schools, but it seems most colleges seem to define their experience primarily by their curriculum.

but it seems most colleges seem to define their experience primarily by their curriculum.

It's important to remember who typically has the biggest say and financial influence over choosing a university to attend: the parents. Steve Jr might have a few party colleges in his roster, but mom and dad want to pay for the "best education." Sell what the people with the money want ;-)

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#45

Post by zach »

fleitz wrote: post #3

I've always wondered what the employment / income benefits for a degree are once you account for intelligence. It seems to be that there is a lot of schooling that goes unused.

Or at least once you account for scholastic aptitude. If only there was a widely-used test that measured it...

But seriously, there must be some studies that explain what happens after two students with equal SAT scores graduate with degrees in different fields. Anyone know?

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#46

Post by stretchwithme »

hristov wrote: post #30
warwick wrote: post #5

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near t…

Exactly. Also, I think it errs by treating all colleges as equivalent. Since the government subsidises educational loans there are many colleges out there that do not provide much of an education but mostly exist to siphon off those subsidised loans. I think there are many colleges out there which are just not worth going to. Mind you, I am not an ivy league snob, I am not saying go to a top 50 school or not at all.…

absolutely. if people paid market rates for education loans, you'd see an increased focus on rate of return. And we'd also see an increased focus from schools on quality instruction in well paid fields and less spending on recreational facilities.

For-profit schools may not be as well regarded, but remember that they have to pay taxes while the others don't. And many get a lot of other subsidies as well. So the real costs are somewhat obscured.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#47

Post by rdtsc »

zach wrote: post #41
rdtsc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should a parent tell a child who wants to go into a non-"money" field? Should one still pay $80,000 for 4 years of "Social Studies"? Tell them not to go at all and get a 2 year degree from a community college? We all grew up brainwashed with the idea that "4 year college"="better jobs"="better life". Colleges have been raking in good profits all these years by exploiting that mantra. It is really hard to all of…

I think we have a logic/emotion split about college, where logically we know college costs lots of actual money and should be regarded as an investment, but our emotions have been manipulated to think of college as a certain kind of life-validating experience. So the decision to go to college is governed by the logic of college as investment, but then the content part is guided by the emotion of college as personal s…

That is a good article. A classic. A key part of it for me is:

---

Although America's universities are churning out a steady stream of brain-dead simpletons, our society relies almost exclusively on college credentials as the central determining factor of social status and employment opportunities.

---

I know it is a farce. But I also want the HR departments across the country to know that too. (I guess the lesson is: don't work for companies that consider college degree + GPA as the main determinant for your employment criteria).

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#48

Post by [deleted] »

jgg wrote: post #42
timr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over." It's incorrect to interpret this article as evidence for an anti-intellectual world-view. Nothing in the article suggests that bachelor's degrees will be unimportant in the future, particularly for the best jobs. The article also points out (correctly) that people without college degrees make less on average, and have less r…

I never knew that I had to have a bachelors to be an "intellectual". I refused to join Mensa even after I could have, does that make me "not gifted"? I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the uninteresting middle, and depends a lot on what school you go to, how much you apply yourself, and other factors. Sure, you might learn some things from school. Are these really things that you couldn't learn outside…

[deleted]

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#49

Post by rnugent »

This article is so wrong, on so many levels it's hard to imagine that this was in a respected newspaper. The idea that some folks should not go to college is, at best, quaint. This reason that people attend college varies a great deal. Not everyone looks at it as a means to a financial end (otherwise there would only be several majors - Finance, Medicine, Law, Engineering). Do you think an English Lit major expects a job at Goldman Sachs upon graduation? Educators are suggesting this because they are dealing with a wave of unprepared Freshman and it costs them more money to teach remedial classes and then risk these folks dropping out. This is a "business" problem for the higher education industry. Wait, think about that phrase, "Higher Education Industry". College has become a big business. No longer do Universities exist to educate our population, they are now a for profit business. In California, it's easier to be admitted to a public university if you're from out of state than if you're a resident because the schools can charge more for out of staters.

The problem is that funding for K-12 schools has dwindled leaving our US grown kids unprepared for the riggers of university. At the same time the Higher Education Industry is looking for the highest profit students to attend and they are coming from out of state and out of this country. That leaves us with a workforce that is not home grown and a culture that underachieves.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#50

Post by lsc »

rdtsc wrote: post #38
warwick wrote: post #5

I think what bothers me most when I read this sort of article is that it treats all college degrees as equivalent. They talk about average earnings potential and average unemployment rates, but they never break it down. If you get a B.Sc. instead of a B.A., how does that effect your chances? Almost all my friends without some sort of technical degree (Chem, CompSci, Physics, Math, etc.) aren't working anywhere near t…

What should a parent tell a child who wants to go into a non-"money" field? Should one still pay $80,000 for 4 years of "Social Studies"? Tell them not to go at all and get a 2 year degree from a community college? We all grew up brainwashed with the idea that "4 year college"="better jobs"="better life". Colleges have been raking in good profits all these years by exploiting that mantra. It is really hard to all of…

do you have the money to spend? Many of my family members got liberal arts degrees, and they felt enriched by the experience. I know visiting them, it sure looked like they were having a good time, meeting interesting people, etc.

Me, I got a SysAdmin job rather than going to school, and continued on in that direction. Sure, when I was my sister's age, I made 5x what she does now, but I don't think that was her primary reason for going to school.

I mean people spend that much on cars that aren't any more utilitarian than a $15,000 civic, so why not spend it learning an interesting skill while living around interesting people?

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