China is choking the Internet

I've stayed out of this till now; but feel I have to add something here.

I worked for a client in Shanghai to clear him of Fraud allegations (just to get it out of the way; he was beyond clearly innocent - competitors had planted "evidence" and reported him). One of the most memorable things he said (and I feel this sums up Chinese hierarchy to a tee) was:

The legal system here is absolutely great. It's when they decide not to use it that things get dicey

I try to keep up with EU technology law, but I'm afraid I only keep up with specifics for individual countries when its widely covered. You can keep your hat on :P

Many things that our intelligence agencies do disturbs me as well, and in fact the policy on the NSA telecom cooperation case as well as other areas where I consider the government to be acting unconstitutionally are my biggest gripe with the Obama administration.

Back to marijuana betonsports: I still disagree. That type of betting is strictly prohibited, and while I think that law should be removed, it is a perfectly valid law to enforce, despite its being driven by a desire for tax revenue and a large dose of hypocrisy. The fact that the provider of the service is not in the US means that they generally will not be gone after as long as they remain outside the US (assuming they are not breaking their own country's laws) unless their own country agrees for some reason that they should be extradited. However once they set foot on US soil the US govt is well within its rights to arrest them. They did break a US law interacting with people under US jurisdiction. The appropriate marijuana comparison in my opinion, would be when a US citizen mail ordered marijuana from someone who is allowed to export it under their local laws. Ignoring any illegal actions taken by other people to get the drugs into the US, should the marijuana dealer be immune to arrest when they enter the US?

As far as the "must leave china" comments, I agree, and now I see why you made that comment. I sometimes tend to disconnect specific comments I want to respond to from the larger discussion, so please don't take any comments I made as implicit agreement with the people you're already arguing with. ;) And I'd tend to say that just about everywhere is much more towards the middle of the freedom spectrum than most people believe. Its just so much easier to think in black and white than all those greys that make up the real world.

> They did break a US law interacting with people under US jurisdiction.

I disagree with you there, it was the people in the US that were under US jurisdiction, betonsports was not an American company and so American jurisdiction does not apply to them. The fact that the guy was arrested on a sealed warrant is quite telling, if he was really in violation of the law in his jurisdiction they would have applied for his extradition instead. The US would like its law to extend to all the countries in the world, but in turn does not even allow its citizens to stand trial abroad when for instance accused of war crimes.

Incidentally, I feel the same about France trying to apply its laws to Yahoo! and Ebay, and Italy trying to apply its laws to Google (though, in both cases the company involved did have a presence on the soil of those countries, but said presences were absolutely not involved in the perceived transgressions).

I prefer to see the grays :)

Keeps me sane and stops me from going all out about 'how great' the place where I happen to live is, a bit of perspective is badly needed.

> They did break a US law interacting with people under US jurisdiction. The appropriate marijuana comparison in my opinion, would be when a US citizen mail ordered marijuana from someone who is allowed to export it under their local laws. Ignoring any illegal actions taken by other people to get the drugs into the US, should the marijuana dealer be immune to arrest when they enter the US?

Good question. My point of view would be 'absolutely not'.

And my main reason for feeling that way is that it should not be a requirement of a business abroad to even be aware of all the laws and statues of countries where they are not based when doing business over the internet. If the bets were legal in England it doesn't matter whether a US person visits in person or the transaction takes place online.

The drugs scenario you describe is being acted out every day by the way.

Your finding that I am not in Shanghai at the moment says nothing poignant. My family came back to the U.S. for a bit for family reasons: my grandmother is 99 and I wanted to spend time with her. My mother is getting a bit old and I wanted my son to spend time with her while he's still a young boy. There are certainly things about China that I personally am thankful for a break. Air and noise pollution mostly, and having more personal space. How is air and noise pollution and personal space a product of bad or corrupt governance and not simply due to the size of China's population and economic growth? The China gov has sponsored more new nuclear reactor projects than any country in the world to try to catch up with its energy needs. Its way behind and coal burning is going to keep increasing which is a tragedy. But they are ahead of the U.S. in being proactive. How are these side effects of their unprecedented growth the fault of some "evil empire"? I've worked inside the China government. There are good people and bad people, just like the U.S. I no longer work with China government and mostly not with local Chinese business because I find the process incompatible with my personality. My wife handles the process with no stress. So I do the IT work and deal with western business partners and she deals with the local stuff. Its important to understand that its "you" that gets upset about these things, not the majority of the local Chinese. I've snapped several times in my years there. I've hit critical levels of "I can't take this anymore!!!". But when I calm down and look around, I notice that its just me...the locals aren't bothered by it or at least not enough to try to change.

You've failed to make a case that its the CCP that is causing the problems that you describe. Well, with the exception of intellectual property issues. But the people of China are quite supportive of not paying a tariff to western countries for intellectual property. Can you make a moral or human rights case for why that position is wrong?. I'm not defending the CCP or their internet policies. But I can tell you that the vast majority of problems I've had doing business in China were due to the business people behaving badly. The government doesn't sponsor this behavior.

As to China not knowing what to call themselves...why should any country call themselves by a name that describes an economic tool? Why can't a country and its people use all available tools and change the system as their needs change? Your feelings about wanting to kiss the ground of a U.S. National Park points to your support of a government owning land and protecting and providing it to all citizens. U.S. National Parks are certainly not a product of capitalism. Dare I call it by its rightful name?

I highly recommend Americans read the book "In the Pond" http://www.amazon.com/Pond-Ha-Jin/dp/0375709118 The book speaks to many aspects of Chinese culture. The part that an American may find the most difficult to accept is how the protagonist, Shao Bin, keeps pushing for change and justice and keeps getting his ass handed to him. All the while, no one supports him, he's not a hero. His wife is angry at him for bringing trouble into their home. This is very hard for an American to accept. I will most likely never feel the way a Chinese person feels as to the boundaries of "what you can change and at what cost". But I have come to accept that I don't feel it and to reject my response that my feelings on what I can and should change in China are due to my having a more clear moral standing.

There is nothing such as foolproof technology - that's why a large part of the firewall is powered by people. It helps develop computer skills in a large part of the population that would otherwise be out of work, and you reach your censorship targets at the same time. I think tens of thousands of young people (if not more) are employed as "firewall monitors" in China.