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China is choking the Internet

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: China is choking the Internet

#71

Post by [deleted] »

garply wrote: post #59
bcl wrote: post #21

Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it while you till have that option. As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual, private VPN sessions? Setup…

I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture, cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see the most populous nation on Earth ra…

[deleted]

Re: China is choking the Internet

#72

Post by falien »

jacquesm wrote: post #62
hga wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first sentence is a circular argument when the state gets to arbitrarily define what's illegal and notoriously includes legally undefined "state secrets" that have extended to basic economic information ... or anything that embarrasses someone in power.

Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason. In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter

um... last sentence of the introductory blurb: "The gag order was ruled unconstitutional as an infringement of free speech, in the Doe v. Ashcroft case.[1]"

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, but alot of the arguments and especially analogies you're using in this discussion are intellectually dishonest.

Re: China is choking the Internet

#73

Post by falien »

Bjoern wrote: post #18
jacquesm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's posted below that his business is not registered, so there is nothing to get uppity about. Also, after moving out there is not much to gain from the situation any more so any time you invest in to getting 'uppity' is wasted. On another note, I wonder how much of the paranoia is really warranted and how much of it is based on media hype, I have two friends working in China and they're managing to get along with g…

You don't get "uppity" with Chinese officials. You either have a good connection to the government or you can do squat. Government ties is everything if you really want to get your business going. The real problem is the international companies providing all this nifty IT tech to actually realize this 1984 path what is going on in China.

All of the equipment is manufactured in China anyway... Why would they not sell to the Chinese government when the alternative is for the government to get the unbranded equipment that is manufactured when the factory is "offline". :P

Re: China is choking the Internet

#74

Post by Vivtek »

garply wrote: post #59
bcl wrote: post #21

Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it while you till have that option. As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual, private VPN sessions? Setup…

I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture, cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see the most populous nation on Earth ra…

And apparently don't rely on a working Internet.

Re: China is choking the Internet

#75

Post by jhancock »

hga wrote: post #34
jacquesm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. Why? Two of my friends are doing the exact same thing (only their businesses are registered) and they're doing just fine. One moved there from the Netherlands, the other from Hungary. > And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there. Neither can I, but that's no…

" You mean a free country like the US perhaps: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... " I don't find it difficult to distinguish a country which by and large abides by the rule of law---even if one thinks upon occasion that the law is an ass---with a country that barely pretends. And we don't know what's going to be the long term consequences of the PRC's steadily increasing crackdown on the…

Have you experienced law enforcement and courts in China? I have on several occasions. As well as the U.S.. I lived in Shanghai 10 years. I'm in the U.S. right now with my Chinese wife. My experiences in Shanghai court and with Shanghai police were more fair and congenial than in the U.S. My wife and I were at the county courthouse (U.S.) a week ago and we talked a bit about the flow of a court proceeding. Somewhere in the middle of my description she stopped me and said "You mean the judge takes the word of the police with no hard evidence over the word of the defendant?". Even further, in the U.S., the police usually make some sort of determination of what happened or who is at fault in disputes. This bias carries over into legal proceedings. Not so in Shanghai. The police only take witness reports exactly as stated and provide notarization and copies of the reports to the parties.

Running an Internet business in China is not impossible. I ran and helped others run them for 10 years. The Internet censoring can be a problem at times but is not a top factor in your success or failure as a business.

Re: China is choking the Internet

#76

Post by jhancock »

hga wrote: post #39
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave that example because the entrepreneur it writes about was a foreigner visiting the US with a business outside of the US where his activities were legal.

Indeed, but it's still within the confines of the rule of law. He could have avoided this unhappy conclusion by either not accepting business from the US that is illegal here or never stepping foot in the US. Heck, he could have joined Antigua in bringing this before the WTO in 2003: http://www.antiguawto.com/WTODispPg.html The law was published, well publicized and I find it very difficult to believe he didn't know…

It sounds like you are quite enamored with U.S. justice. I'm guessing you've never been arrested and put through the system.

From this post, you are indicating that if the law is published and clear, then its ok? I've found it very easy to understand Chinese laws. What's your point?

Perhaps some web sites are being blocked as a competitive measure. Are you saying a country and government must engage in free and open trade? What if they choose to play the international trade game different?

Re: China is choking the Internet

#77

Post by jhancock »

Vivtek wrote: post #74
garply wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture, cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see the most populous nation on Earth ra…

And apparently don't rely on a working Internet.

That's snarky and ignorant. I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. The Internet blocking never effected my ability to deliver quality IT solutions to my customers.

Re: China is choking the Internet

#78

Post by jacquesm »

falien wrote: post #72
jacquesm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason. In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter

um... last sentence of the introductory blurb: "The gag order was ruled unconstitutional as an infringement of free speech, in the Doe v. Ashcroft case.[1]" I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, but alot of the arguments and especially analogies you're using in this discussion are intellectually dishonest.

The fact that it was ruled un-constitutional does not take away the fact that this law was in effect for several years.

And it's not the only example of such a law, and not all of them have been ruled un-constitutional.

I don't know what you mean with 'intellectually dishonest', all I'm trying to do is to point out that there is plenty wrong in China but we in the so-called 'free west' have enough beams in our own eyes to preclude us from going all 'oh my' about China without qualifications.

The anti-China sentiment here seems to be for the most part based on media and fear of the unknown rather than on solid facts, and you could make exactly the same case about the US and various other 'free' countries.

I'm all for criticizing human rights violations, but then let's be fair and even handed about it, instead of suggesting that a simple request could get you in trouble with the law in China, which as far as I know from those that I know that live and work in China is simply not true.

I also note that I was the one to step up and actually do something about this particular problem in this particular instance.

Re: China is choking the Internet

#79

Post by jhancock »

You simply need someone to give you SSH access to a server outside China. Setup a SOCKS proxy through SSH and you can get anywhere you want.

Using some SaaS from inside China can be a problem (even with your SSH tunnel) due to latency and bandwidth. Find other tools. Folks have been building Internet companies for quite some time without needing cool JavaScript SaaS collaborative cloud thingies.

Re: China is choking the Internet

#80

Post by jacquesm »

jhancock wrote: post #77
Vivtek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And apparently don't rely on a working Internet.

That's snarky and ignorant. I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. The Internet blocking never effected my ability to deliver quality IT solutions to my customers.

There you go again, injecting reason in to an otherwise entertaining argument not hindered by facts and figures.

The 'red scare' seems to be alive and well.

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