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Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

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Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#161

Post by Kalium »

skadamou wrote: post #96
snappyTertle wrote: post #46

Inequality is not inherently a bad thing. People should be compensated for the value they produce. Profits are a signal of how much people value what is produced. For example, people love iPhones, it no surprise that Apple is the most valuable company in the world. What causes resentment between classes is lack of mobility. This, IMO, is caused by government regulations and a banking system that hurts the middle clas…

>“People should be compensated for the value they produce. Profits are a signal of how much people value what is produced." I’m hoping you might expand on this a little. I’ve never quite understood this line of reasoning mostly because it seems like there is a lot of money to be made in finance and yet I’m not sure how hedge funds “produce” anything. I really do mean this earnestly, I don’t know a whole lot about eco…

It's not buying and selling stocks that's producing value, as you think of it. It's that the money they produce funds, for instance, someone's retirement.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#162

Post by Kalium »

visarga wrote: post #29
ant6n wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler way would be to print more money and cause more inflation. 10% wealth destruction per month matches the hyper inflation of Germany in the 20s.Of course the rich who store their assets in non liquid form weren't as affected as the poor who didn't know how to pay for bread.

There is another way, without issuing money. Create a new currency, dedicated for paying UBI to people. Then require that companies pay part of their taxes in this currency, in order to make it valuable. It should cycle itself back and there would be no need to issue new UBI money. The deeper problem is that companies have a conflict of short term / long term interest. In the short term, they would prefer to sell the…

I eagerly await you building the society of self-reliance of which you speak. It sounds like there's nothing stopping you!

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#163

Post by croon »

snappyTertle wrote: post #124
croon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regulations like minimum wage and higher taxes on larger income make it hard to hire the next marginal employee. Minimum wage prices out low skilled workers, who would like to work and obtain on the job experience needed to climb the ladder. High taxes makes it more expensive for business owners to hire someone. I'm not talking about large businesses like Walmart (they actually support minimum wage). Small business…

Higher wages drive prices up, and price out less productive workers. Sure, the people who remain employed are better off. But what about everyone who has to pay higher prices, and workers who are now unable to find a job? Why is it ok to tax profitable businesses/people for the sake of equality? I get it if they don't earn their profits fairly. Why should we steal from top producers and redistribute? Taxes should not…

> Higher wages drive prices up, and price out less productive workers. Sure, the people who remain employed are better off. But what about everyone who has to pay higher prices, and workers who are now unable to find a job?

I don't know if you do or have ever owned a business (I do), and that is somehow clouding your judgement, but this is a very shortsighted view, and in no way universal truth. Sure, on day one you as a business owner have to pay more, but going forward, every other business has to as well, so your clientele if it's end consumers (employees of other companies) will be richer, and if your clients are businesses their clients (employees) are richer so your business in turn still increases. This is not a a long chain of logic.

> Why is it ok to tax profitable businesses/people for the sake of equality?

I don't understand the motivation behind your phrasing. Is your question literally; "Why is it ok to tax X?". Because the taxing would be on profitable businesses, unprofitable business, rich people, poor people. Taxes are about societal growth, upkeep and yes, to some extent equality, BECAUSE it promotes a healthier market.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#164

Post by edblarney »

"wars, pandemics, civil unrest; only violent shocks like these have substantially reduced inequality over the millennia."

No. The history of Anglo culture has been as violent as any other - but not in revolutionary terms.

Same thing for Scandinavian cultures.

UK/Australia/Canada/NZ have relatively reasonable rates of inequality and there has been no revolution.

Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland - have likely the highest degree of 'equality' and yet - there has been no revolution. Their Monarchies and State Churches remain intact to this day.

The American revolution - though important in terms of world history - was a pretty minor affair - the colonies were small and sparse at the time.

It's also very difficult to consider 'revolution' before recorded history as there were no 'social movements' as we understand them, granted, studying revolution before the common are would be worth an academic exercise.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#165

Post by cmdrfred »

bandrami wrote: post #137
briandear wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody cares about a country's wealth -- people care about their own. See Adam Smith.

Yes, Smith's The Wealth of Individuals is a must-read

So you wake up, shower, get dressed and commute to work not for your own gain but instead to raise the GDP of the country you live in?

Only insects have that sort of thought process. "I may die but the hive will overflow!"

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#166

Post by edblarney »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #80

I love reading the comments on stories like this and consider these comments to be a bellwether as to the current state of inequality in our society. Unfortunately I tend to consider myself one who exists on the lower part of the wealth distribution logarithm within the western world, globally it's a different story. Just as anyone tweeting on their smart phone or tablet claiming to be part of the 99% might want to r…

"Could it be that the rise in terror incedents recently may in fact be caused by this inequality and not just radical religious zealots? "

The prosperity of nations is not a zero sum game.

Many of those 'terrorist nations' have ample natural resources, in the way of Oil - and would be prosperous, glorious civilizations were it not for their totalitarian means, and total lack of intelligent social organization.

The USA is not 'rich' because of something the Middle East gives them. The US purchases Oil from some of these nations, giving them massive trade account surpluses that they should be using to build their civilizations. But they don't.

I'd argue the 'root cause' of their failure may actually have a lot to do with their 'cultural ideologies' which are related to their specific local religion. I'm not against religion or Islam, rather pointing out that some flavours may be detrimental to some forms of secular progress.

Surely - the perception of inequality and anger may be a driving factor, but their anger may be misguided. Also - I think many of them understand this - the #1 ire of terrorist groups such as ISIS etc. is not 'The West' - it's what they perceive to be their local tyrannical governments: Saddam, Assad, 'House of Saud' etc..

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#168

Post by intended »

husgfdsr3y wrote: post #43

Singapore has one of the highest income inequalities in the world. It has one of the lowest violence rates in the world. You can say the same about China too and many other countries in Asia.

It's also Singapore, A city state.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#169

Post by edblarney »

SpaceDingus9000 wrote: post #160
sigmaprimus wrote: post #80

I love reading the comments on stories like this and consider these comments to be a bellwether as to the current state of inequality in our society. Unfortunately I tend to consider myself one who exists on the lower part of the wealth distribution logarithm within the western world, globally it's a different story. Just as anyone tweeting on their smart phone or tablet claiming to be part of the 99% might want to r…

So this is a good example of how the 99% vs 1% meme falls short. It's a description of wealth inequality, which is a symptom of the larger conflict between workers and business owners (proletariat vs. bourgeoisie). The central issue isn't that we have wealth inequality, it's about power. Capitalists get to control our economic planning, have a closer ear of our governments, and have an advantageous negotiating positi…

"Often times it is in the interest of certain capitalists to get our government to engage in imperialism, or destabilize certain regions, which helps lead to the awful conditions for some people in the Middle East, and I think this helps pave the way to religious extremism."

This is patently false.

The US - and 'capitalists' do not want 'destabilization' - over and above all they want 'stability'.

Case and point: Saudi Arabia. Here you have an 'extremely conservative Islamic state' - which is culturally the furthest thing from the American ideal - and yet the Americans are their protectors - doing pretty much anything to preserve the stability of that regime. And for what: direct access to Oil - at market prices. That's it.

Same thing for Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Egypt, Tunisia. And almost Libya until Gaddafi went to far oppressing an uprising, and remember the US supported Saddam so long as he wasn't invading allies like Kuwait.

Prosperity is not a zero-sum game. 100% of the Middle East could be thriving and plentiful if they organized themselves in a responsible manner. Most of them should have ample Oil surpluses to found basic progress.

Re: Stanford historian uncovers a grim correlation between violence and inequality

#170

Post by cmdrfred »

leereeves wrote: post #66
empath75 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no amount of work a human being could do that justifies the wealth that is in the hands of people like Zuckerberg and Warren Buffet. They seem like decent enough people, but they have an obscene amount of wealth and power.

Great wealth is rewarded for placing winning bets, not for hard work. For example, gambling on investments, as with Buffet, or on a new idea, as with Zuckerberg. Sometimes just for gambling on Powerball. The great rewards are balanced by great risks, and many of these gambles are valuable to society. Where would we be without new businesses and new ideas?

>The great rewards are balanced by great risks

Zuckerburgs wealth exceeds that of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of his countrymen. Do you honestly believe that the risk he incurred was greater than all of our nations oil rig workers, foresters, soldiers and police combined?

Am I missing something? If Facebook goes belly up do his shareholders get to cut off his hands?

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