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Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

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Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#51
post #46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No quibbles with most of it. But meat eating is sustainable in a limited way: Some land is well suited as pasture but not usable for much else. Ie. a 200g steak per day isn't sustainable, but pasta sauces with a few slivers of pancetta are.

I'm not sure I buy this oft-repeated non-arable land claim. First, aren't GMOs and other technological advances redefining "non-arable". Secondly, doesn't land used for pasture generate more methane and waste and take more energy and water, than if it was just left unused?

https://www.nve.no/media/3576/209_1-navitelva-foto-gunnar-kr...

You can have sheep spend the summer there. GMO wheat fields, not.

Methane and waste, well, maybe. It's not clear to me that there can be enough sheep there that the waste is a problem. I've never even tried to quantify the methane.

Energy and water aren't issues. The energy to gather the sheep in the autumn is a rounding error, and how would you water such an area anyway?

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I buy this oft-repeated non-arable land claim. First, aren't GMOs and other technological advances redefining "non-arable". Secondly, doesn't land used for pasture generate more methane and waste and take more energy and water, than if it was just left unused?

Left unused it would be populated by other grass eaters like Bison which have very similar environmental impacts.

Ok, I'll admit that's a good answer.

Just pushing things further, since I appreciate your insight, in terms of nature (as opposed to feeding humans), wouldn't a more natural ecosystem be preferred? Might it better help protect against extinctions and such?

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#53

The article should be titled something more like 'Local, Seasonal Diets Are Going To Save The Planet'. It's not much about vegetarianism, except to attack it for clickbait reasons.

Right, or even more accurately "Local, Seasonal Diets Are The Best, Says Man Selling Local, Seasonal Food"

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#54
post #41
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what this post is about (why people shouldn't eat meat). It's about the claim that vegetarian diets are better for the environment, which they are, but not to the extent that they'll solve our sustainable agriculture challenges. Please take your soapboxing to a place where it's on topic.

Please there is no call for being mean like this. I personally found this comment to be interesting and relevant. I also think it is relevant to the larger discussion of which this article is a part.

How is calling out people for highjacking discussions that are remotely about their personal convictions to preach about those convictions 'mean'? If anything, this site should police such behavior more - what we have now is half of the posts arguing a straw man because they see a keyword in the title and feel they need to defend their ideological positions. The OP is about how vegetarianism won't lead to sustainable food supply - and the GP answers 'you should become vegetarian because poor animals'. Fine, but in the context of this threat pure noise. Look, I'm not saying I can always restrain myself to stay on topic in every post I type; I'd be happy to have those posts summarily deleted too if that meant the signal to noise ratio in the comments would increase.

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#55
I'm the author. Ho boy. Just a few clarifications based on things I'm seeing here:

"a vegetarian diet, and specially a vegan diet, is A LOT less awful then an omni diet both environmentally, ethically and considering health impact."

I agree. Nowhere did I contradict this.

"He argues vegetarians eat more staples."

No, I argue that the most vegetarian diets are composed primarily of staples. Subtle but extremely important distinction.

"Showing pictures of hippies to re-enforce the idea that vegetarians/vegans are some treehugging margin group."

I dug my own grave here. Had no idea this article would go viral. Oops.

"meat eating is simply not sustainable"

Correct; CAFO industrial meat that's eaten without an ear toward seasonality or ecological propriety is pure hell. However, sustainable food production systems will rely on modeling natural patterns (which is the opposite of what nearly all farms today do), and that will rely heavily on animals - though far, far, FAR fewer of them - for mineral cycling and fertility, as do nearly all native ecosystems. I don't have the space here to talk about fertility via animals vs nitrogenous covers; may address that in a later article.

"Cowspiracy"

This movie is directed at the industrial meat supply chain: the land-expansive background farms that feed CAFOs and the CAFOs themselves. I advocate for neither.

"The author is also playing the false dichotomy vegetarian omnivorous"

There is an entire paragraph in my article where I explain that not all vegetarian diets, and not all omnivorous diets, are created equal.

"Had the author consulted the literature, he'd know that the environmental credentials of grass-fed beef are extremely suspect; some studies suggest that the carbon footprint is actually greater than intensive feedlot beef and the land use is absolutely vast. He'd know that only a handful of animal sources of protein have equivalent CO2 emissions to plant sources - intensively reared poultry, eggs and some inshore seafoods."

The increased carbon footprint of grass-finished beef is based on grass finished beef living longer than grain finished beef because they take longer to finish. The studies I've seen regarding grass/grain cattle emissions are limited to examination of lifetime carbon output directly from the cow through expiration. They do not examine 1.) the sequestration of carbon into soil built by ecologically managed, rotationally-grazed herds, 2.) the carbon output of CAFO manure lagoons, 3.) the carbon footprint of the grains fed to CAFO animals. In short, the studies do not address the net carbon effect of the entire system, and they only address the two "traditional" methods of raising cattle, neither of which I endorse.

"He's very clear that eating a fully vegetarian diet now is worse, footprint-wise, that eating a mildly omnivorous one."

Not quite. I said it's POSSIBLE for a fully vegetarian diet to be worse, footprint wise, than a plant-centric omnivorous one. I.e. there is no deterministic link between vegetarian diets and sustainability.

"Besides some flimsy claims about who consumes the most staples"

Again, I make no claims about who eats the most staples. I make a claim that the most vegetarian diets are principally composed of staples.

"It's not much about vegetarianism, except to attack it for clickbait reasons."

Absolutely correct. I had to choose between an accurate title that almost no one would read, or a caustic one that would stimulate debate and get me yelled at. And so here we are :-)

"The author should cite the article(s) that claim vegetarian diets alone will save the planet"

As stated in the first sentence, this article was prompted by a slew of responses from vegetarians to my previous article about organic agriculture, nearly all of whom argued that the "simple" solution to food sustainability was to switch to a vegetarian diet.

"Question: aren't 'local', small-scale farms more resource-intensive per unit of food grown than factory farms, not less?"

Yes. However, I'm advocating a form of agriculture that doesn't exist yet.

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#56
I am still not convinced that local anything is more eco/carbon friendly. Think the Law of Comparative Advantages - in certain areas my lunch will be way more eco/carbon friendly if I only spend the whole day producing guns instead of butter. Also I suspect that huge farms employing high end software, hardware and even weather prediction technology are more eco/carbon friendly than any local farmer can ever be.

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#57
post #5

The article should be titled something more like 'Local, Seasonal Diets Are Going To Save The Planet'. It's not much about vegetarianism, except to attack it for clickbait reasons.

And a local, seasonal vegetarian diet is a lot easier to implement in a city environment than a local, seasonal omnivorous diet. So vegetarian is still likely to be a better option in the future, especially if you consider vat-grown meat to be a vegetable.

No, because with your vegetables you get lots of peels and seeds and remains that will be just great to feed a couple of hens for instance. Sustainable agriculture, even at a very small scale, always combines plants and animals.

That's the fundamental blind spot of vegans. Anyone actually growing some vegetables and fruits in his backyard will understand this. I know many starry-eyed hippies growing organic stuff in the countryside, and if many of them are vegetarians (eating dairy, eggs, etc but no meat) absolutely 0% of them are vegans because it doesn't make sense from a producer perspective.

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

51% of CO2 emissions is just a number that was repeated. there's also dead oceans by 2048 which is the most pessimistic estimate. but some numbers are fine. the amount of land that is used for livestock is incomparable. water pollution, dead ocean zones, all caused by animal agriculture. the amount of environmental destruction and pollution is incomparable. more than 90% of destroyed Amazon rainforest was for the sol…

I believe it's 51% of the greenhouse effect, that include 20ish percent of co2 emission resulting from cattle + the effect of methane which is a much more powerfull green house gas than co2. (now whether this number is 51% or something else is another debate)

51% includes also respiration of cows, which should be net zero, because it is exactly the CO₂ that was captured by the plants before. (which is not okay to do)

Also 51% because equivalent calculations are not done over the span of 100 years, but shorter (methane becomes more dominant) and deforestation is also accounted for - (which is both fine).

So it is somewhere in between the results of renovated studies that say it is around 31% (e.g. Tukker et al) and the 51% worldwatch report.

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#59

Founder of Eaternity here. Putting facts to the issue, we have collected the largest database to calculate the CO₂ emissions for food - and it is freely available: www.eaternity.org

Cool project! Forwarded to people at oekom-research.com I know.

thank you

Re: Vegetarian diets are not going to save the planet

#60
post #46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No quibbles with most of it. But meat eating is sustainable in a limited way: Some land is well suited as pasture but not usable for much else. Ie. a 200g steak per day isn't sustainable, but pasta sauces with a few slivers of pancetta are.

I'm not sure I buy this oft-repeated non-arable land claim. First, aren't GMOs and other technological advances redefining "non-arable". Secondly, doesn't land used for pasture generate more methane and waste and take more energy and water, than if it was just left unused?

Exhibit A: Iceland https://prestoninstitute.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/p101014...

You can't grow crops on that. No one's watering it. The only energy use is rounding all the sheep back up.

As for methane... well it's not the land that makes that, but the sheep. You're going to have that problem as long as you're rearing ruminants to eat. There's a lot of research being done on that - it's possible we'll be able to engineer low-methane sheep...

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